106 teachers may be fired in Miami-Dade for buying fake credentials

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by chydenius, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. chydenius

    chydenius New Member

    Casting pearls before swine

    You are correct that inputs and outputs are not mutually exclusive. However, only the outputs matter in education.

    If this were not the case, then homeschooling would be a failure. However, homeschoolers tend to score as well or better than the average population, even though their parents are typically not professionally trained educators, who have access to expensive equipment.

    My own experience is that undergraduate students from the Caribbean tend to be as well prepared for college as their American counterparts -- actually, they give the impression of being better prepared, on average -- even though the schools in the islands are ofter very rustic, when compared to US schools.

    When one judges a school system, one typically focuses on exam scores or other output measures, and not the physical facilities and faculty credentials.
  2. chydenius

    chydenius New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: corruption

    I am more than willing to stipulate that fraud is immoral, without getting bogged down in debate. However, legality is not a very good measure of morality. Otherwise, owning a ferret in California would be immoral.

    In Saudi Arabia, it is illegal to consume alcohol. Does make Belgians immoral, since they drink a lot of beer; or, does morality stop at the border?

    Does an act, statement, or thought become immoral the moment that legislation is enacted prohibitting it?

    Indeed, it does appear that this could be the act of a guilty mind.

    This could be a separate thread, in itself. ;)

    On this much, you and I agree. We have veered way off my original point, which is that the system that makes this kind of behavior profitable is flawed.

    Banks have found that bulletproof glass is often more effective than relying on the customer civility, to prevent robberies.

    Quite possibly you are correct. Exploring such differences, and finding common ground is what makes these discussions enjoyable.

    Best regards!
  3. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Saudis drink a lot of beer too

    Apparently morality does stop at the border for the Saudis. Saudis stream, by the thousands, into Bahrain and the UAE every weekend for a taste of freedom and a beer. Funny that you should say Belgian. The last time I had a couple of beers in Bahrain, we were drinking Stella Artois.

    With regard to the topic at hand, DesElms is right, the teachers need to be fired and the HR folks may need to be censured.
  4. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Re: Saudis drink a lot of beer too

    HR needs to suffer at least as much as, but preferably more than, the teachers. This never would have happened if HR wasn't asleep at the wheel.
  5. Charles

    Charles New Member

    I don't think HR is very culpable in this case. The credits were awarded by RA colleges via a contractor. HR cannot be expected to site-check every educational provider. But then again, there was an indicator that should have set off alarm bells. Any organization that begins with the words "Move On" deserves extra scrutiny.
  6. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Except MoveOn.org, of course
  7. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    HR should be expected to be able to know the difference between legit and non-legit schools. If you don't know the diff, you don't belong in HR. Simple as that.
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    And then we should ask who were the jackasses at the RA schools who were asleep at the wheel.
  9. chydenius

    chydenius New Member

    Re: Saudis drink a lot of beer too

    I have not seen it myself, but I have heard that when airplanes depart Saudi airspace the atmosphere changes dramatically.

    As fascinating as the topic of the geographical boundedness of morality is, we seem to be drifting a bit off-topic.

    (Imagine a country where hunting humans were legal, so long as the hunted voluntarily joined the game...) ;)

    In this particular case, the teachers sent their documentation directly to the state, rather than their local officials. This suggests that they knew that they were up to no good. Punishing the teachers for this would be similar to punishing a child for asking Dad for permission to do something, right after Mom refused that permission.

    There's nothing wrong with asking Dad for permission, per se. However, this kind of jurisdictional arbitrage generally is discouraged.

    An argument can be made that the teachers and the HR flacks should be given a professional time-out, in order to raise the cost of gaming the system.

    At the same time, though, the system that led to this is flawed. Instead of mandating that teachers accumulate so-and-so many continuing education units (inputs), the focus should be on their pupils' performance (outputs).
  10. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    You know, I was just re-reading the story, and I'm struck by just how tragic it all really is. I mean... this is... this... is... just awful. Awful!

    Careers dating back to 1968 -- nearly four decades -- are being trashed, ruined, ended by this terrible, terrible thing. Some of those teachers are, no doubt, very good at what they do. Some of them have probably changed lives, and encouraged students to go on and do great things. In the cases of teachers who did such encouraging thirty or more years ago, those students have had plenty of time to grow up and actually do said great things... and may already have done so. Lives may even have been saved. Fortunes may even have been changed. Out of so many teachers -- many of whom have been at it a while -- there's no telling how many indirect beneficiaries there have been.

    Is it right, then, that we are so unforgiving; that the penalty should be so final and ungrateful, in spite of the teachers' bad acts? Should not some moderation and compromise -- perhaps even compassion -- now be in order?

    I'm wondering if firing the teachers is really the right move. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to give every teacher who did this the opportunity to actually take -- and to prove that they had done so by a certain deadline -- the very courses that they had faked... that is, so long as they also make restitution for the increased salary that they earned from said fakery. And I'm wondering if, with regard to said restitution, there should be some kind of periodic payback system (most likely via payroll deductions) that should be offered.

    The more I think about this terrible thing, the more troubled I am by my glib, perhaps unthinking, "hang 'em high" sort of response proffered in my earlier (the fourth) post in this thread.

    Some sort of consequences for the teachers are clearly in order. And it's good to publicize the situation and to impose said consequences so that other teachers will get the message. But teachers are already doing the most thankless and underpaid -- yet perhaps the most important -- work in our society. Of course there are bad ones... and maybe it would be easier to just let the bad ones have it. But I'll bet there are good ones among these teachers, too.

    Maybe those who stupidly committed this fakery should be required to take a certain, very specific kind of ethics course or courses, too. Maybe, in addition to everything else, they should be made a deal wherein as long as they stay and do an excellent job for at least 10 years -- and maybe do or provide certain other stuff during said 10 years that is badly needed in schools these days -- they will have their personnel records expunged of the transgressions so that they may go on to teach elsewhere without having a bad mark on their records.

    There is opportunity in this crisis. I'm thinking maybe it should be seized upon for the greater good.

    Or so it is now my thinking. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. But this whole thing sure feels bad to me. Really bad. Tragic.

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  11. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Gregg, this is exactly what I'm in my own way fighting for.

    I'm sure that teachers with such carrers deserved special recognition.
    If it was in UK and they belonged to a professional institution
    they would have been rewarded for their service to the society.

    Emagine now that teachers with such career get recognized and get award of Master teacher, such recognition with benefits that other teachers get only if they hold Masters degree in that field or even higher.

    The requirements of CE is important I understand.
    I can state that the number of teachers would be not 106 but maybe 6.

    I know this works in UK and can work in USA.

    as far as forgiving, well look at immigration laws, this laws are brocken all the time, police is not inforsing the immigration laws.
    so once some laws are ignored then others loose their respect.
    What is the message sent?

    Especially when its profitble.

    Wile the teachers are guilty, I would give them a second chance,
    If they earn real CE's and spend evenings volantier in after hour school programs for kids, to help with homework and help parents that work full time jobs.
    They can earn new respect.

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2005
  12. chydenius

    chydenius New Member

    This goes back to my original point. If all that mattered were the performance of the students, then there would be no point in requiring one-size-fits-all continuing education, and the incentives for corruption that it creates.

    If the students of a particular teacher were performing poorly, then remediation would be called for. However, if a teacher has been performing well since 1968, as demonstrated by student outcomes, then there is no need to bother him or her with continuing education requirements.

    Recently, I 'earned' six CEUs by sitting through 3/4 of a conference that consisted of a series of stage-frightened speakers going on and on about this week's pedagogical fad, while I drew cartoons on my conference materials. It was an utter waste of my time. However, I did get a pretty certificate, a copy of which is in my faculty file, confirming my ongoing commitment to professional development.

    Teachers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose, but your continuing education requirements! :D
  13. marilynd

    marilynd New Member

    Perhaps they could be required to stand in front of each of their classes, look their students in the eye, and say a healthy mea culpa.

  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    It apreas that they would be standing infront of a judge.

  15. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Nah. Hang 'em high as Haman. They knew damn well what they were doing.

    To argue, as others did, that only HR is to blame because they didn't catch 'em is really to argue that teachers have neither brains nor ethics. I shouldn't like to do that.

    String 'em up.
  16. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    I would argue not that only HR is to blame but that there will never be any magical, mystical, omnipotent authority to protect us from all ills. Organizations should accept that reality and take primary responsibility for protecting themselves.
  17. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Actually I never argued that only HR is to blame ... only that HR has the equal right to be strung up and hung high as Haman right along with the teachers.
  18. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think HR is the weak link in many ways.

    Actually its a nasty organization and it is a time they
    held responcible for their screwups.

  19. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Access slowing class credit inquiry

  20. Charles

    Charles New Member

    Tennessee college investigates partnership


Share This Page