Need some advice about Trinity Seminary

I have had the same experience with Trinity. I recently looked into the Dmin at Trinity and thought it would be a possibility. I paid the deposit (and didn't read all of the fine print) mainly because one of the admissions people told me that I could take 60 days to come up with the money for the "cash price." He also told me that he'd start me in the dmin program right away and just take my "word for it" that I had two Masters's degrees (MRE and MAR - Liberty). I paid the deposit and viewed my first class. It was a poorly shot youtube video and it was comparable to my undegrad degree level. I looked through the requirements for a core class for a doctorate and it was laughable. I immediately had a "oh my what have I done" feeling and in a few days gave them notice that I was withdrawing. I received and email that I had to pay back 50% of the tuition for the program since it was just past the 5 day period. I am so discouraged about this. I reached out to the President, who told me to go back to the finance person and that he couldn't really do anything about it. I took his word for it and misunderstood. They were really laid back on the front end ("send me your official transcripts one day, I'll take your word for it.")

The crazy thing is my Dad went to Trinity over 20 years ago and had an okay experience but not bad. When I shared all of this with him, he is astounded.

Does anyone have any help for me? I'm new to the forum and currently discouraged...

 

These are not reputable people, but may be brought to heel by the threat of exposure and the possibility of a court case going against them that will become public record. Contact an attorney, or your elected representative. Perhaps you can message the fellow who ran afoul of them a decade ago and (if he still has the same contact email through the DI board) find out what route worked for him?

 

I hope everyone else here reads this and takes note that this leopard has not changed its spots, despite the protestations of shills for many years now.

 

Out of curiosity, how much was the deposit? In other words, how much in dollars are you out, and how much do they say is due?

Also, if it boils down to legal action on their part or yours, what state are you located in?

Finally, let's confirfm: Trinity is a common name for degree mills, especially Trinity Seminary. Are we talking about the one in Newburgh, IN? If not, which specific Trinity?

 

Back in my Navy days, Trinity (Newburgh) was, by far, the most common unaccredited school that would come up in my daily life. People were constantly trying to have the degree added to their service records (and many succeeded because, at the time, there was fairly little education or consistency for PNs on the topic). Sliding into a close second would be Almeda University, FTR.

This was when they were doing their verification thing through University of Canterbury which added to the confusion.

That's all I have. Just brought me down memory lane for a bit. I can kind of understand the position of many of the people I knew who completed associates degrees through Trinity. They wanted Christian education, they didn't care about accreditation or if the degree would help them pursue further educational goals or secure employment outside of a church. And in the early 2000s, Trinity positioned itself as one of the only sources of that education for people in far flung locations like service members overseas.

In 2018, you have your pick of accredited schools, however. Just set aside all of the debates on this forum of RA vs NA and ATS vs non-ATS and whether TRACS is as sketchy as their web design for a minute. There are just so many options accredited by everything from DEAC to ABHE to TRACS with highly competitive price points. Why are people still choosing Trinity? Even Nations, which we ripped apart on this very forum, has shown itself to be at least 60% less sketch than Trinity and with its offerings at a fraction of the price.

Is a cheap(ish) and (I assume) easy unaccredited doctorate really worth this dance with the devil, folks?

 

Call the Indiana Attorney General's Office (and the one in your own state).

I believe Dr. Bear posted they lost their campus to the auction block a year or so ago.

 

Thanks for the replies. Yes, it is Trinity Newburgh. The reason I looked into it is because my Dad went there (He had a Mdiv from Southwestern and went for the Dmin in biblical counseling in the 90's with Trinity) and a few other SBC pastors I know also went there...Now that I've seen their level of work in the doctorate classes after one day, I quickly realized this isn't for me. I'm currently looking into SATS and Pretoria for a PhD in Practical Theology.

I would encourage people to avoid them. I am a Pastor in Florida (church planter with 3 kids under 6) so with them demanding I pay almost $2500 for a degree I will never take, it is really frustrating and sad. They are throwing the "letter of the law" at me that it is in the fine print, and yes, I am not wise for not reading every detail. I thought they were laid back ("you can send in your official transcripts whenever, we will take your WORD FOR IT"). Run away!

I'll be calling the Attorney general and my state's baptist convention to ask about legal/education questions. I really don't want to cause any problems for them, I just want them to show just a pinch of grace to a guy who didn't even complete 3 days of a class...

And yes, I am no longer choosing an unaccredited school. It makes sense now why they don't have accreditation

 

Sorry, you may get some of that here, from us, but you will get none of it from them.

 

You have the right idea. Why top your academic career off with an unaccredited doctorate. There are so many RA, DEAC and TRACS options out there.

Neuhaus mentions Nations. They are affordable, a number of posters have spoken well of their academics, and they are accredited. They do not however offer a doctorate. So, perhaps a good option for someone seeking Bachelors or Masters.

As for Trinity, they may or may not be moved by what you do (likely other complaints) but you should report practices to the AGs office otherwise there is no record. With their past practices I would not feel sorry for them. A common theme in both their RA quest and DEAC quest was finances. They have now lost their campus (had a small modern conference center, old Mansion turned into an Admin Office, etc).

 

In other words, what you are telling us is that your dad has a degree mill doctorate. And that he was as naïve as you were. The notion of Trinity being a degree mill is nothing new – they have always been a degree mill.

Um, have you not heard the expression, “Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.” You just got ripped off by a U.S. degree mill. So now you want to go for a South African degree? Um, why???

Nothing personal, but I get the impression that you are one of those guys who want “the chief seats in the synagogue.”
You have two legitimate master’s degrees from Liberty. The first thing you should be asking yourself is why you need a doctorate in the first place? (You don’t.) Then, will a South African doctorate put you in a position to teach at any American university or seminary? (On rare occasion it might, but the general answer is no.) Are you, essentially seeking a doctorate just to get your jollies by having other people call you Doctor? (If so, your ego needs tempering.)

Um, yeah. Right. We’ve heard it all before, and some of us have been calling Trinity a degree mill for 30-something years.

I do not give out legal advice. But if it were me, I would simply ignore them. Ignore them totally. Do not respond to their demands, do not respond to their phone calls, hang up on them if they reach you by phone immediately, and make no statements to them whatsoever so you do not end up putting your foot in your mouth.

Now, a result of that is that Trinity may refer their charges to a credit collection agency, in which case you do the same thing you are doing with Trinity – nothing. It may create a black mark on your credit report, but what is dumber: a bad note on your credit report, or giving them another $2,500?

Then you’re useless. Both to us and to yourself. Why don’t you want to cause any problems for them? They are certainly causing some for you. And even though you were naïve enough to be taken in, you are in a position to help others who may find themselves in the same situation.

The fact is, Trinity has been around for a lot of years, and they will continue to be around for several more. They have always been a rip-off, and that will not change. They will never show you a pinch of grace, and you, in turn, do not owe them grace.

Okay, I’m too lazy to look up the reference, but you should know it already as a good ol’ Baptist boy: it has to do with always being above reproach.

You will not be above reproach if you settle for any school other than a legitimately accredited U.S. seminary. Don’t even think about foreign schools, whether South African, British, or any other country. Because there are people in your own congregation who will consider your credentials to be suspect. And a suspect doctorate can ruin the credibility that came from your master’s degrees from Liberty.

Best thing to do right now? A lot of reading. Start with some creative searches here at DegreeInfo.com, learn about good versus bad accreditations (since many of them are meaningless), and take some time off from pursuing a doctorate until you can justify a doctorate.

 

Admittedly, I do not know much about a congregation you refer to, or internal quirks in the SBs. However, are they really this judgemental and closed-minded?
In our corner, the biggest DL provider would be Antiochian House of Studies, a recent ATS applicant but otherwise unaccredited. Their Masters degree is validated by University of Balamand, Lebanon. I can't imagine anyone would hold it as anything other than completely beyond reproach. To be fair, Patriarch of Antioch does reside in Lebanon.

SATS and Pretoria both seem to have credentialed faculty in Theology. A degree in the field should not 'ruin' degrees from mass DL provider Liberty. If we talked about a doctorate earned out of campus in 2 years, in a made up field of 'Religion and Law' from a DL school that has no departments of Religion OR Law - in this case, some side eye would be justified. Wouldn't it?

 

I appreciate the feedback and insights.

As for why I am pursuing a PhD...I want to teach part-time in the future and through my dissertation focus, help underesourced church planters in the US and world through my research. That is all. Don't care about the "doctor" title, although it seems that Steve thinks that about me. I'm not sure why there is such a quick rush to pigeon hole people on this forum when you don't even know the person personally?

I have heard from multiple Professors in the USA encouraging me to pursue a research doctorate with Pretoria or SATS. All have encouraged it so this is the first time I've heard someone say it isn't a worthy venture. I do appreciate your remarks as I pray for wisdom.

 

First, because that is the type of person we often see on forums like this one. Second, because you were dumb enough to be taken in by Trinity in the first place. You are, perhaps, well meaning – your willingness to respond would appear to demonstrate that. But you are also naïve. And what you describe above can be accomplished without a doctorate, outside the scope of a dissertation, and by reading any number of church-planting books that are available at any Christian bookstore.

If you continue to explore this type it is not the last time you will hear that it is not a worthy venture.

Nonetheless, I have doubts about how many “multiple Professors” [sic] have encouraged you accordingly. For one thing, comparing the University of Pretoria with SATS is like comparing apples and moon rocks. No one would question the validity of Pretoria in light of their history (founded in the late 1800’s, although they use 1908 as their founding in some circumstances) and scope – they are one of the most credible universities not only in South Africa, but in the world. The South African Theological Seminary, on the other hand, was founded in 1996 and describes itself as a “distance learning” school.

Keep in mind that I have always considered phrases like “distance learning school” and “online seminary” to be oxymorons, especially when talking about schools that purport to specialize in theological subjects and pastoral studies.

Indeed, for well over 30 years I have espoused the position that doctoral-level programs in the helping professions (which include education and pastoral care) should have a residential component to establish accountability on the part of the candidate. I don’t presume to specify the what the residential component should include, merely that there should be one. Those who are seeking doctorates in a helping profession are presuming to become leaders in their field. A totally non-resident program at the doctoral level (or, in pastoral studies, at the M.Div. level) lack the establishment of accountability and create a consumer risk that I find unacceptable.

So, am I expressing a blanket trashing of Pretoria? Of course not. I find them quite credible. And the people of whom I am aware that have taken degrees from long-standing programs such as Pretoria, UNIZUL, and UNISA have put quite a lot into them, and have put to shame the notion that any of these schools are the fast and easy way to pull off a degree.

Am I expressing a blanket trashing of SATS? As Sarah Palin would say, you betcha. Because a “distance learning” seminary that purports to grant doctorates without a residential component is sleazy, regardless of where they are located.

All that said, I hope you’ll stick around, even when people like me attempt to give you a reality check. Because in the meantime, you’re the guy who fell for Trinity, not me. Normally, I would have laughed my ass off at you already, but I actually do have a heart. Somewhere.

 

Here's the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary's 'faculty' page.

http://www.sbts.edu/academics/faculty/

The second name on the top row has a D.Phil. from Oxford. Scrolling down I see a doctorate from Cambridge, one from the U. of Basel in Switzerland, St. Andrew's (several times), the U. of Toronto, Bar Ilan U. in Israel, a doctoral candidate at the U. of Haifa in Israel, the London School of Theology ("validated" by Middlesex U.), a doctorate from the University of the Free State (in South Africa), even (horrors !) one with a doctorate from the University of South Africa (likely a DL degree).

In point of fact, Christian theology is one of UNISA's strengths. (I'm guessing that its orientation leans towards the Reformed church, and I don't know how well the meshes with the Baptists. But I noticed several Notre Dame doctorates on the SBTS list, and Notre Dame isn't notably Baptist either.)

I still think that what matters at the doctoral level isn't so much a university's nationality or its accreditation. It's academic reputation in whatever one's speciality is. If an individual is going to do a doctorate for professional reasons, then he or she should probably enroll in the best program they can get into... and can afford, if financial aid isn't forthcoming. (Price is where the South African schools often shine.)

 

This assertion didn't age well.

 

Neither did Steve LOL .

It's Levicoff being Levicoff. He has extensive experience in the field, but somehow got the idea that his degrees (all earned nontraditionally) are somehow not "distance learning" and therefore "better".

 

Right. But neither did I, so I can't criticize...

 

Levicoff is known for painting everything in black and white when it is clearly grey and then telling you that grey is a myth and you're an idiot for believing otherwise.

The notion that a fully remote M.Div. was the worst thing imaginable was another idea promoted 'round these parts. The thing is that for many (most) denominations, being on-campus in and of itself does nothing to your discernment as clergy. The M.Div. is just an academic degree. Some denominations do their full formation alongside it. Others wait until after you graduate. In either case, the delivery method for the M.Div. coursework doesn't matter for a good number of would-be clergy. Likewise, grand sweeping pronouncements about how residential makes something pure and non-residential makes something shady simply do not follow. And, even if they did, some highly respectable schools have decided to take another course. So, change with the times or get left behind.

 

As an ordained pastor in the largest Protestant denomination, I agree. Our denomination's seven schools all offer online professional degrees (e.g., MDiv; DMin) and a host of academic degrees (MA; ThM). However, Levicoff's pontification about the "sleaziness" of doctoral work via distance is both an affront to myriads of very credible institutions as well as the entire edifice of European academic research. The troubling part is, Levicoff says some insightful things at times. I suppose even a blind squirl finds a nut once in a while.

 

Levicoff says a lot of insightful things. He has more experience in these matters than, at this point, any of us here. It's just he has some, let's call it, eccentricities. And it's all well and good until he starts personal attacks on people over those.

A context for Levicoff's pontification about the "sleaziness" of doctoral work via distance: he earned his PhD (RA, as he likes to remind) at TUIU, by distance. In fact, all three of his degrees are earned by distance (Bachelor's, largely by portfolio). He makes a ridiculous distinction based on the fact that he spent, like, a week in "residence" or something like that.