Will the Terminator Terminate Tookie?

Well, because the legal test for innocence, or actually, for guilt, is jury trial.

That device is considered most likely to arrive at a factually correct result. And, in my experience anyway, this is true.

But you don't get an endless number of jury trials. You get only ONE, so long as that one is fair and meets constitutional due process requirements. Indeed, if the verdict is not guilty for all or a part of the charges, the trial doesn't even need to be fair for double jeopardy to attach.

Our state and federal constitutions place great weight on facts as found by a jury. Unless there was something seriously wrong with the way the trial itself was conducted, jury verdicts will not be overturned.

The thing about a jury is it comprises ordinary citizens taken (literally) off the street. A jury really IS society sitting in judgment in a way that we frankly don't trust Judges to do.

 

Elementary penology

TH:

You might want to consider exactly what you want the prison system to accomplish before you say that. Pure incarceration does not rehabilitate. Negative reinforcement doesn't do much, either.

Unless you want to give every one of these guys a life sentence, or expand the death penalty wildly beyond where it's been for the past 200 years or so, these guys are going to get OUT some day.

The good time system also tends to place the prisoner's fate to some extent into his own hands. I am sure you would agree that taking responsibility for the consequences of one's own acts is fundamental to living a civilized life. Well, since these guys didn't learn that at home, the prison system needs to teach them.

As to arming COs, weapons can change hands at bad times.

lspahn:

Well, that makes it kind of hard. Since Tookie has been nowhere BUT in prison since he was sentenced, to what else besides his conduct as a prisoner can he possibly point to show rehabilitation?

Anyway, Tookie has no right to earn good time or any other sentence reduction (which makes him a very much more dangerous prisoner, BTW) I do not doubt that any improvement in his demeanor is motivated in a substantial way by his natural desire to remain alive.

 

Oh, and about "Lifers"

Yes, they ARE handled differently. If they are psychotic, they are handled much like Dr. Lector in "Silence of the Lambs."

Death Row inmates are kept in solitary confinement.

In New Mexico, our "life" is thirty calendar years after which the inmate MAY qualify for parole. Even this faint promise helps keep these men in line.

Suicide in prisons is common.

 

Re: Elementary penology

I've already considered what I want the prison system to do: Prison is not there to reform you or make you penitent. I want it [prison] to punish bad people for what they have done. And I want it to be bad enough that they'll not want to go back if they ever do get out and I want people who hear about what prison is like to decide that they don'tr want to go there in the first place. The state is not your mommy or your nanny. You do your time ... all of it ... and when you get out, then is your chance to prove to yourself and society that you don't need to go back.

 

No clemency for Tookie

Last chance is the federal courts.

 

9th US Circuit Court of Appeals

has denied his appeals. Looks as if he is done.

 

Re: 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals

Aw, you mean all those nice liberals on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals wouldn't grant an appeal to a poor dear martyred individual? Not that I'm shedding any tears, mind you!

 

Re: Re: 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals

I noted the irony of it being the 9th Circuit myself.

 

Mr. Gang Banger's defense attorney said "if Tookie is unworthy of clemency, then who is..". I say, anyone is. Gang banger POS Williams is a cold blooded killer. He has no redeemption - if he was serious about redeemption, then he would admit his crimes, help prosectuors solve other Crips crimes, and stop assualting prison staff. One of my closest friends is a Sgt on death row. He said that Tookie is the only death row inmate who continually assualts guards (even to this day) - his redemption is and always is a farse.

Go to hell Tookie - when you take your last sticking breath of air, you will not be remembered for writing childrens books, you will be remembered for what you are: a cold blooded killer.

 

Williams just denied clemency by Governor.

 

Re: Time off for good behavior

Well, I HAVE worked in prisons, supervising CO's as a unit manager. I agree with the above post completely, except to add that there are other benefits to good time, primarily in that it tends to slant behavior towards rehabilitation. And since most inmates return to society, anything that encourages rehabilitation--even if only a minority of felons refrain from re-offending--is good for society.

 

Dr. Douglas,

Alas! TH is representative of a LOT of Americans who believe despite all evidence to the contrary that punishment per se works to rehabilitate and deter. It doesn't.

Such people also mistakenly think of the prison system as a sort of "black box" when it's a lot more like a sieve; we get these guys BACK ont he street!

Thanks for your post.

 

People forget....

Prison is for punishment and/or rehabilitation. Someone in jail for a minor infraction is there for punishment AND rehabilitation. The goal is to prevent recidivism which is already way to high. I have worked in two prisons and can attest they aren't pleasant places at best. No need to make them unsafe for the guards as well and no need to turn prisons in to Re-Offender Universities any more than necessary.

One can forget when talking about the tookie case that the death penalty has nothing to do with rehabilitation. It is all about punishment. I admit tookie, more than anyone I have seen in a long time, deserves some serious punishment. My problem with capital punishment rests with the fallibility of our court systems. I am not willing to execute one innocent person to get at all of the other guilty ones. When told by others that they are willing to risk it, I ask them to volunteer to be the next innocent person put to death.

No takers yet, imagine that.....

 

It IS scary.

I don't know; death is so FINAL. I also tend to think that the death penalty is bad for those of us in whose name it is carried out. An execution is a cold blooded extermination. No passion. No personal threat to self or others. No organized enemy trying to kill you or your fellow soldiers. Just a Court order and a well restrained "victim". Brrrr.

But then it's really easy to forget the "victim's" victims, the ones HE killed for gain or revenge or entertainment.

I don't argue now, nor have I ever maintained, that the State has no moral right to kill.

But the idea is sickening to me.

 

Where did I say that the purpose of punishment is to rehabilitate? It isn't! The purpose of punishment is to make the life of a wrongdoer as miserable as possible! Maybe some wrongdoers will conclude that punishment hurts. And maybe they'll self-rehabilitate. But that's up to them, not up to me or the government or society.

 

Hey Ted, guess what? We finally agree on something!

I have worked with inmates off and on for years in mental health, substance abuse, and probation. Rehabilitation is virtually vain and futile.

Prisoners becoming successful and productive members of society just doesn't come to fruition all that often.

 

So, TH, what you are after is vengence?

Please, please! Remember, these folks GET OUT eventually.

 

There are a small handful of issues that really cut to the bone. The death penalty is one of them. Here are a few of my thoughts:
1) If "killing" is wrong, why isn't killing "wrong?"
2) Society is a system that allows large numbers of people to live together. If a person deliberately rejects that system (by commiting premeditated murder) do they not forfeit their right to participate in that system?
3) If a person deliberately kills another, what rights does he retain? Life? Liberty? The pursuit of happiness? Aren't these supposed to be inalienable?
4) In a system of Utilitarianism where the greatest good for the greatest number prevails, the death penalty is enforced.
5) People are victims of their upbringing, their poor living environments. These people should not be unfairly punished for things beyond their control.
6) Adults make decisions and then live with the consequences.
7) In a society where psychotherapy is common, where religion (redemption) is the norm, don't we believe that people can truly change?
8) It seems that lots and lots of people find God once they're faced with execution...how conveeeeeenient!
My conclusion: I sleep badly enough as it is. I'm glad that I don't have to be the one to make the decision. This is another extremely complex issue and while people are certainly free to come to their own decisions (and by whatever means they choose), I believe that the fundamental respect for life should preclude simplistic reasoning, regardless of the eventual decision.
Jack

 

And herein lies the problem. I don't honestly think most who support capital punishment do so because they support the taking of a life. I think they are frustrated. Frustrated that violent offenders are turned loose back into society.

Life in prison, no paroles, no pleas, no getting off for good behavior, and hard time are the only real solutions.

 

Well thought out and well put, Jack.