Whats the problem with Community colleges

One of my local comunity colleges, Canada College in Redwood City, is addressing that with what they call their "university center". This currently offers three bachelors degree programs with all classes offered on the community college campus. These are a BA in Child Development and a BS in Nursing, offered as remote site programs by San Francisco State, and a remote site BS in Health Services Administration from Cal State East Bay. All of three of these degrees kind of build on existing community college programs such as an associates-level RN program.

http://canadacollege.net/university/index.html

In several other states, there's been a tendency for a few community colleges to roll out their own bachelors degrees in a few selected subjects. Apparently state governments find it more cost-effective to make more intensive use of existing facilities than to build a whole new state college.

Great Basin College, the long established community college in remote Elko Nevada has been quietly adding bachelors degrees over the last few years.

http://www.gbcnv.edu/academics/programs/programs.html

Northern New Mexico College in Espanola is doing the same thing. Maui Community College in Hawaii recently fired up its first bachelors degree.

 

I think this is an encouraging development. A two year private college (but not a CC) near me offers both bachelor and masters degrees on campus in conjunction with Webster.
http://www.marymountpv.edu/comEd/eveinfo.html

 

You can check it out here: http://www.collegesavingsmd.org/prepaid-college-trust-overview.aspx

Pug

 

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SPORTS!!!!!!!! I knew I missed a reason

 

When I was at the entry-level stage, the smart kids went to UCLA and the < cough > slow kids went to the local community college.

 

It really depends upon the state you are located in. Some states have had Community Colleges for over 100 years. Other states are just now developing their community college system.

It is important to recognize what a community college is, and is not. Comparing community colleges to universities is an unfair comparison. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Community colleges have a different mission than a University. A university is dedicated not just to teaching; but, also to research. A community college is dedicated to the community (hence the name community college). Full-time community college professors devote their time solely to teaching.

Entrance requirements are different. Every community college I have ever been a part of (faculty and student) has been an open admission institution. This means that everyone is admitted. As most are aware, universities have competitive admissions.

It is common to see people regard a community college as a lesser institution. This applies to both the quality of faculty and the courses themselves. Both colleges and universities are bound by the same rules with regard to regional accreditation. Individuals holding masters degrees can teach at both institutions; however, at a University you need a doctorate to teach graduate level classes. Look at the faculty rosters at many Universities. They have several people with masters degrees that teach the undergraduate classes. At the community college it is a requirement that every faculty member have a masters degree if they are teaching a transferable course. A few vocational instructors do have bachelors degrees. This has been the policy at three different 2-year institutions that I have been affiliated with. Two of my family members are also community college profs and their institutions also have this rule. I believe that this is a requirement of regional accreditation; however, of this I am not positive. The trend in community colleges has been towards hiring people with doctorates. Indeed, in my department three out of four full-time faculty have doctorates. The ratio is even higher in other departments.

Another common misconception is that community colleges focus solely on vocational education. This is absolutely untrue. At the community college where I am currently employed, roughly 3/4 of all students are academic students that are enrolled in a 2+2 program with a nearby university. Yes, my college also offers coursework in HVAC, Automotive, EMT, Police Academy, Welding, etc... The point is that the vast majority of the students are not vocational students.

I apologize if I come off a bit hot here. I am a strong advocate for the community college. Indeed, I would not be typing this today had it not been for a community college. As a high school dropout I completed my GED and attended a community college for two years. Had it not been for the opportunities provided to me by the community college I would not have been able to go on to the many universities I subsequently attended.

 

I guess I am one of those "slow kids." I attended a community college. Went on to earn a bachelors, two masters (working on #3 for fun), and a doctorate. My doctorate is from a school ranked in U.S. News. Oh, and I had a 3.98 GPA. Damn, I am slow.

Maybe that's why I am a community college professor instead of a real university professor.

 

I am a huge fan of CCs. We paid $11-15 per credit for the wife's AA at one of the California CCs. That was a huge savings on the total cost of her bachelor's degree.

 

Here in California the community colleges are run by local districts, not directly by the state. So they are responsive to community needs that way.

But the California State University certainly doesn't forget service to the community. It has its 'Open University' program that allows members of the public to take individual classes on a space available basis without applying to or being admitted by the university, provided that class prerequisites are met. Just show up at the first class section, see if there's room, get the professor's signature on a form and pay the (not cheap) fee. Many Silicon Valley engineers take San Jose State classes this way to stay current. (And that in turn adds a real-world aspect for the regular students.) If a student is over 50, they can audit classes this way for free. If they are over 60, they can formally enroll in any degree program (that they academically qualify for) on a space-available basis for free.

The University of California does fit the typical model better. It's very research oriented and it separates its community service efforts off into non-degree-granting extension divisions. There's no way that a UC campus would let members of the community participate in its regular classes.

I don't disagree with you about that being the typical pattern, but I will post this just because I like it.

City College of San Francisco's very cool little Astronomy department. Just locating it is research, since it's hidden in a remote alcove of the old science building. You have to locate an obscure stairway to reach it. It's its own little universe up there, kind of like astronomy itself The department head is a University of Chicago astrophysics Ph.D. who is doing all kinds of fascinating research things and who welcomes CCSF students to come join him in doing it too. Where else can freshmen and sophomores get involved in research right out of the gate, from their very first class? The elite research universities don't offer their students that.

http://fog.ccsf.org/~lkao/Project/project.html

Harvard doesn't.

While community colleges are open admissions in the sense that every applicant can expect to be admitted to something, sometimes it's remedial basic-skills or ESL classes. On occasion individual community college programs can be more selective. Oftentimes you see popular vocational programs in health-care specialties requiring additional admissions procedures.

Yeah, I think that's often true. But again, sometimes individual programs can be very cool and even prestigious.

For example, there's Moorpark College's amazing program in Exotic Animal Management. They actually run their own zoo on campus, complete with a Bengal tiger and a lioness. They had an elephant in the past and are currently breeding camels. People come from all around the United States to study in this program. Many zookeepers graduate from it and the program is very close to the Los Angeles film and TV industry. Whenever you see unusual animals performing in movies or on TV, it's usually these people behind the scenes.

http://www.moorparkcollege.edu/current_students/teaching_zoo/history.shtml

When I was taking classes at City College of San Francisco (it was free, so why not?) I thought that the community college classes were as good as classes I'd taken elsewhere. They didn't dumb-down the material or anything like that. What was different was the preparation and talents of the other students. I'd enroll in a class that was standing-room-only in the first meeting, but it would only be 1/3 full at the end of the semester. Class-attrition and drop-out rates were high. Sometimes it took kids several tries in order to finally pass a hard class. Sometimes kids just gave up and dropped out of school entirely or changed their majors to something easier.

While some members of the general public do have the idea that community college classes are academically lesser classes somehow, universities don't always agree. My local College of San Mateo has negotiated guaranteed admission agreements that guarantee that people who satisfy prerequisites with suitable grades at CSM will receive guaranteed priority admission to seven of the ten University of California campuses (Davis, Santa Cruz, Merced, Santa Barbara, Riverside, Irvine and San Diego) or to a list of private schools including University of San Francisco and Santa Clara University. There's some internationally prominent "top tier" schools there who appear confident that CSM classes suitably resemble their own.

 

I agree with one of the earlier posters. When I went to HS, if you went to the community college it meant you weren't smart enough to get into any better schools. That's what we all thought at least when we were 18. Now that I'm older, I'm more mature and see how this thinking is crazy.

Hopefully in this economy, today's 18 yr olds will think more highly of community colleges. With their parents savings in the toilet, it might be the only way some of them will be able to afford to attend college.

 

Problem?

It is funny how many people had looked down on community colleges in the past.

Yes the schools are looked down upon because they often have easier coursework. The students often have fewer skills than those who have been accepted to state colleges (need about a 2.7 high school gpa)or universities (they want a 3.5 high school gpa).

I know at the local CC here in Southern California there are a number of rudimentary courses that are packed with students who still can't do algebra or who can't complete English 1.

But what I also know is that around the 30 mile area there must be 20 community colleges, 2 state colleges and 1 university. And a number of the instructors at the community colleges are adjunct instructors with masters degrees, they often work at one or two community colleges, and then also teach at either one of the state colleges or the university or both.

What I hear from them is that often the course materials and books are the same. But they expect more from the state college students and even more from the university students. They are less forgiving. They will give much more homework and make the exams lengthier and more difficult.

But now the CC's are getting packed. @ $20 per unit its too good of a bargain to pass up, and all the CC's have transfer agreements with the other State colleges and universities so many more people are taking this route. With the economy going south there will be a lot more acceptance in the future.

And why not its the same material, by the same instructors. My wife said her anatomy instructors were telling her it was just a couple years ago that their classes were half empty, now they are turning away 10-12 students per term that show up trying to add the course when they can't register online because the course shows full. She knows of a number of university students who are coming back to take some of their courses at the CC because the anatomy and biology courses at the university are substantially difficult and they have that transfer agreement that lets them transfer the course without any problem.

I just had a history course that had 11 people trying to add over capacity. It was crazy. There were people standing outside in the hall for the first class. The instructor said he would add three students and they had to do it by the lowest student ID number. And that was for a history class where the instructor is one of the most difficult on campus.

So yes the coursework is often less. Which is good and bad. You have more time because of less coursework, but you may not be pushed as hard on the material so you may not have the same in depth understanding of it.

 

My own observation in my own cc district, is that we are absolutely pressured to retain students. We also get evaluated by the students in every class- every semester. (even those of us who have been there 17 friggin years) It is VERY customer-focused. We have new policy in place that allows a student to withdrawal until the day of the final exam- and beyond if you ask.
My very unofficial opinion, is that cc environment can be easier if you consider the lengths the cc will go to to keep you in the program. (raising my right hand on my honor) we invented a hospitality certificate to give to a student with 1 semester/9 credits because he threatened to sue over a poor grade- instead we "graduated him" with the gift of a certificate, and off he went. (lol no, not my class!) If this student were in a state university, he wouldn't have gotten this level of "customer service" and he wouldn't have got to bitch to the college president....he certainly wouldn't have "earned" a certificate.

 

I was unique, I was taking classes at a community college AND a 4-year university during the same semester (due to class availability). Did that a couple of semester.

I am not sure the work is less at the community college level from my experience. I had demanding teachers and dotes at both. I had an English teach at the community college for Comp II that was very demanding AND very helpful. I had a pushover BLAW teacher at the 4-year that basically gave us the answers to the tests the class before we had to take it. I learned some stuff but it was not due to teaching or assignment rigor. Probably got more physically out of carrying the huge BLAW book than I did mentally by sitting in the class.

Perhaps things have changed over the last 15 or so years (I hope not) but I think teachers are good and teachers are bad.

One More Thing
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I also had 4-5 classes where I had to do NOTHING but take tests at the 4-year school & communit college. Class attendance was not required, no writing assignments, nothing. If you could pass the exams, you got the grade. I have yet to have a DL class as easy as some of the traditional classes I breezed.

My ISP classes at WIU were much more demanding than several of the classes I took as traditional site-based courses. Same with NSU -- learned a lot there. TUI's classwork is not easy as well. Challenge my education on merit / content, most traditional school (especially 4-year college work) would lose!

Sorry for the rant!

 

This is a fascinating development.

I do think that part of the reason for the fact that CC classes are sometimes looked down on is the prestige factor; obviously the same freshman classes taken at U Cal, Berkeley are going to look better on a transcript (and quite arguably, be more rigorous) than at a local CC.

If, however, state unis (including the U Cal system) effectively outsource the first half of the bachelor's degree to the CC's, it would level things considerably in terms of such issues. Or so it seems to me.

Peace,

Matt

 

There are several community college - university partnerships in California that have experimented with this approach. For a while CSU San Marcos only accepted juniors and seniors. In California there is a very well designed articulation agreement between the CSU and UC systems and the community colleges.