What is “May be a diploma mill”?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Dr. Latin Juris, Dec 18, 2004.

  1. This is the most terrible categorization of the ODA list “May be a diploma mill”.

    So, if the institution is“May be a diploma mill”, the meaning of that is that they do not know with solid evidence.

    However, why to put that terrible words with no solid evidence?

    What is “May be a diploma mill”?:rolleyes:
  2. In addition, what is the legal or legal-administrative-official definition (Regulations-Policy) of a university that “Appears to be a diploma mill”.
  3. galanga

    galanga New Member

    ACU, for example

    Consider spending a little time doing a search on one of the "may be a diploma mill" entities to see what it may mean. Let's see... why not "American Coastline University... Has a Los Angeles mail-forwarding address. Appears to be a diploma mill. ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards."

    Look at its catalogue, look at its site, see what there is to see on the web. Perhaps that'll give you a sense of what is meant by its categorization.

  4. Phases that in a Court Room no have strength

    Galanga, the phase maybe a diploma mill, or appears to be a diploma mill, or perhaps a diploma mill, are phases that in a Court Room no have strength.

    The most excellent thing is accumulate satisfactory firm evidence; evidence that can be used in a Court. Then, with that commanding evidence, and with a fine administrative Due Process, write the word diploma mill, if the university loses in the administrative process.

    Other thing, to have a great administrative process, summits all the evidence to a neutral panel, or to a neutral judge, (one of the members should be a lawyer), and then, if that panel says that ODA wins, that is a powerful thing, and a good process.
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    By indirection find direction out...

    Since the point is to discredit ODA in order to enhance the standing of KW, it doesn't really matter much what is said about ACU. Again, one needn't be a particular admirer of the ODA list to observe the consistent undertow in a tide of posts.
  6. Janko, I do not try to better the picture of K.W.U.

    I only tried to explain some things that ODA need to improved, in order to have a powerful List.

    I like the work of ODA and Dr. Contreras, is a good work, they want to inform the community about the diploma mills problem.

    However, if they are going to label a school like a diploma mill, they need to make the process following a good Due Process and with solid rock evidence. With evidence that would be used in a civil or administrative forum. ODA cannot go to Court with phases like maybe, perhaps, I believe, etc.

    For example

    ODA do not follow a good process in the beginning, about Bod Jones U.

    In addition, they do not follow a good process about Pacific Coast University

    And many others

    Maybe I do not have the same opinion of O.D.A. about some schools, but that is only my personal view.

    Nevertheless, some schools deserve to be in the list like diploma mills.

    Columbia State University is a mill (we know about the juridical process)

    Columbia Pacific U. is also a mill (we know about the juridical process).

    We know about the first-class Job of Dr. Golling, and the Regis thing.

    Also, many others.

    But, only with (Administrative or Civil) solid evidence Janko, ODA is going to survived this Times.
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I suggest a more pragmatic view of the term "May be a diploma mill". First diploma mill is not a legal term. That means that definitions will vary from individual to individual. I suggest that the simple view is that it means someplace with a poor to no reputation. If one wishes to be proud of their alma mater then it means that one should consider looking elsewhere. If one wishes to be an academic fraud and try to claim something that has not been fully earned then it means that this might be a choice to consider.
  8. Bill that is great words.

    That why the Oregon Government need to create an official administrative rules about the meaning of a Diploma Mill. A thing that does not change, that is not in the opinion of one person.

    Alternatively, maybe, create a Law (Legislative Power) with that definition.

    However, the best thing = give every school the opportunity to summit evidence, and then, makes the classification, with the official Goverment definition.
  9. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Re: Phases that in a Court Room no have strength

    Of course, since we are not in a courtroom, none of that really matters, right? I'd also guess that the reason none of these "schools" make an outright challenge to the ODA in a court of law is that they know they'd get their asses kicked. Then they might have to change the name of their bogus school to something like, oh, let's say, James Monroe?
  10. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    Oregon is mapping new ground in their attempt to evaluate schools and degrees for use in Oregon. What I see is that they are trying to come up with something that may quite possibly serve as a model for the rest of the country. They are also trying to avoid walking into deep stuff like Florida did. Oregon has a long history of pioneering legislation. Once they get the details ironed out, I'm sure everybody will know what is and is not a diploma mill.
  11. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    You mention that the ODA does not have a good process concerning Bob Jones University, I am not sure that is true. I believe at the time they notified everyone using an unaccredited/unapproved degree in Oregon to follow the law. That seems reasonable. I am not sure when the method of allowing unaccredited schools to become approved began. I assume it was before this, but that could be wrong. The Judge agreed that Oregon, for the most part, was acting reasonable or the Plaintiff would have been awarded more than $1.

    As to PCU, I am unfamiliar with the school. You go on to mention "many others". I have not seen any cases where the ODA is greatly off the mark. I have seen the ODA criticisized even when they make changes in response to other criticism. I think many critics of the ODA will never be happy. I believe they do better to follow the Law to their best abilities which I believe they are doing.

    Any school that believes they have a legitimate academic process can apply and be approved. The fee to do so is very small. They only reason not to is because the school is lacking and doesn't think it will pass. That speaks for itself.
  12. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I have just a tiny bit of experience with ODA. It occured several years ago when I was a student at Trinity Seminary. Trinity was attempting to get the religious exemption (is it?) from Alan's dept so that TTS grads could list their degrees in religious occupational contexts in Oregon. I had one or two conversations with a TTS VP and with Alan about the situation.

    My perception is that the ODA takes the position that if a school does not wish to be listed by the ODA as a mill, then it is incumbant on that school to provide the ODA with materiel and data in terms of expectations for students and classwork. The ODA does not think that it is the function of the ODA to justify to itself the quality of a school ; that is up to the school.
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    How do you know that there is no solid evidence? My guess is that it's precisely the existence of evidence that motivated the warnings.

    Perhaps the intention here is to warn people who consult the list, including people in distant places like the Dominican Republic, to take special care to investigate these schools for themselves before enrolling in them.

    The words suggest that not only do these schools fail to satisfy Oregon's in-state accreditation requirement, but that the ODA has received some kind of information that it clearly finds troubling, suggesting that these institutions may be seriously substandard in some way.

    Essentially, I interpret the words as telling me: "Look out! Be careful!" That's probably good advice for all these non-accredited schools, but some of them probably deserve it more than others.
  14. Because if ODA was sure about some school, they put "ODA has substantial evidence that this is not a provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards."

    This phase demonstrate security, assurance, authority. Also, demonstrate that they have solid evidence to support the judgment. Evidence that can be use in a Court, if a university try to do something.

    They should give every university the opportunity of present evidence before to classificate the university.

    Then, with a great Due Process, make a decision.

    If with the evidence, the neutral arbitrators think that ODA is right, make the Diploma Mill Classification.

    Maybe this phases sound better.

    Diploma Mill, because after an extensive review, Due Process and according with the Law xx of Oregon, ODA has substantial evidence that this is not a genuine provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards.

    Also, maybe is a good idea to put that if any person want information about the university, ODA, can send the information. (Free; With No cost; It’s a social service):D :D :D

    Only my opinion
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2004
  15. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    I think that "may be a diploma mill" is probably not unlike John Bear's "Less than Wonderful" (which we've liberated).

    There are plenty of schools that are quite obviously fraudulent but are clever enough to not *quite* look fraudulent, or to be smarmy enough to threaten to sue people into oblivion who say unpleasant things...

    so easier to sort of indicate what is and prevent oneself from being sued...
  16. clichemoth

    clichemoth New Member

    Isn't it defined?

    Don't remember the exact wording, but I believe the official definition of "diploma mill" involves a "school" that is solely in the business of selling official-ish pieces of paper without requiring any work or effort. . .

    Hence, good old K-W is not a mill, because they do have such things as courses, for which varying levels of work are required, although it is clearly unwonderful and their degrees are ___still___ ___illegal___ in Oregon.

    "Appears to be" means that it seems to operate as a mill, but that, possibly because of the ephemeral nature of mills, its true nature cannot be determined by investigators.

    Other places besides K-W (Ross of St. Kitts comes to mind) are declared to not be mills, but still unacceptable to the ODA. . .
  17. Training session on defamation law

    My supernatural being, the nastiest piece is this:

    "The Attorney General's office also agreed to provide ODA personnel with a training session on defamation law.":eek: :eek:


    Perhaps, this give explanation to my point better.
  18. Kirkland

    Kirkland New Member

    This is not a defense of paper pushers...

    Just wanted to make a couple of points:

    1) the ODA does define "Diploma Mill".

    2) the term "appears to be" is indecisive. Implies a lack of comprehensive analysis or fear of direct language.

    3) The Oregon statutes do not require the ODA to label institutions in this manner. This perhaps could be the basis for defamatory instruction that will be provided to the ODA by the State Attorney General.

    An alternate approach would be to simply inform the public of the relevant statutes: that degrees must be accredited or approved by the ODA to be used in Oregon without restriction; otherwise, it must be disclosed that they are not accredited or (I assume) not approved by the ODA. A list of approved schools along with a link to CHEA would suffice. All others would go into the unwashed category by default. No name calling, no law suits, no defamation, no constitutional or civil rights concerns... Alan can always go and write his own debunking book.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2004
  19. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    I believe that he meant Pacific Western University. Is that correct po..."Latin Juris"?
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Actually, I think he really MEANS "PCU". Pacific Coast University (if it's the same PCU) has the ODA designation of probable diploma mill or some such.

    Thing is, PCU is a California Approved unaccredited law school offering a four year part time resident J.D. program. It is a non profit organization and its graduates routinely pass the Baby Bar and General Bar examinations. Tuition is an incredible bargain at less than $12,000 for the entire program. This is a resident school, remember. Its classes are taught by licensed attorneys several evenings a week. It has minimum mandatory attendence and examination policies.

    PCU is NOT the equivalent of an ABA school or even a CalBar accredited school, nor does it claim to be, but it has been around for decades and does represent a genuinely affordable way to become an attorney.

    Although a PCU J.D. is not immediately qualified to take the Oregon Bar examination, the same applicant can become qualified by active practice in California for five years. A person who qualifies for the California Bar without any law degree cannot become so qualified. Ergo, it seems that the Oregon Bar affords some limited recognition to the PCU degree.

    I just don't see PCU as a diploma mill.

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