Too many people with online DBAs and PhDs?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by RFValve, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Great stuff! The other two for-profits to consider would be TUI and Jones International, but these are quite a bit smaller (each awards no more 20 doctorates annually). This really accounts or all of the DL for-profits awarding doctorates in the double digits.

    One slight correction: You have an extra 0 in the number of Northcentral grad enrollments. It should be 7900, not 79000.
  2. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Perhaps education is more saturated but in business and engineering I was always offered financial support. I did for my masters and was offered for my doctorate but did not take it. Most people that I know that went for PhDs got financial support. In the department where I work all the PhD students get financial support. I guess this might be foreign to PhDs in education but I know it is the norm for most of the doctoral programs in business. I strogly doubt that someone is going to absorb the cost of going to school for 5 years full time with no financial support.
  3. mrbean72

    mrbean72 New Member

    AACSB Salary Information

    I believe that both Randell1234 and AuTiger00 are correct with their AACSB salary information. The official AACSB salary data quoted by Randell1234includes all AACSB institutions and business specializations.

    However, the anecdotal situation discussed by AuTiger00 is happening more and more. The accounting and finance specializations are seeing salaries for new assistant professors that are much higher than the historical averages, which is most likely due to the looming faculty shortages identified in these disciplines. In fact, there are more and more instances of new assistant professors earning more than full professors at the same institutions. It seems that new assistant professors in accounting (and probably finance too) are getting over $100k per year even at lower tier AACSB institutions. This certainly makes me seriously consider accounting professor as a career path!

    Michael Weedon, CA
  4. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    A girl who is a post-doc fellow here at Harvard and sits next to me will begin as an assitant prof at UNC's Kenan Flagler School of Business next year. Her and I have become friends over the course of the year and she informed me over lunch a couple of weeks ago that she got $180k! I almost threw up.
    Her PhD is from the Univ. of Utah and her dissertation was just approved two weeks ago. At this point, she could have handed in a 5 page paper and they would have conferred the title of doctor on her. It looks great for Utah's fiance department that one of their students got placed at one of the top 20 b-schools in the country, especially considering where Utah is ranked.
    It's amazing what acct and fin PhD's can command in the current market.
  5. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    You are correct that business, engineering and many of the natural "hard" sceinces often live in a different world that other departments at a university. Students in social science, humanities and communication-related programs are generally the recipients of far less institutional funding (unless, of course, they are on the school's athletic teams).

    At most comprehensive universities (other than those with medical or other professional schools), the business school is often at the top of the financial food chain. For a large percentage of those with doctorates in English, social work, journalism or one of the myriad of area studies programs, a college faculty position means a substantial salary range, so there is huge competition. For business, it is much more difficult to find someone with both a terminal academic degree and successful practical experience in business. such people are likely taking a pay cut to join the faculty, so the candidate pool is much smaller and institutions must pay more.

    When I was a Northeastern Illinois University, the faculty went on strike (the only one of my institutions where this has happened). Interestingly, the business faculty chose not to strike. Since only about 3% of doctorates awarded are in business and(as Me Again has demonstrated) B&M business schools tend to graduate small numbers of doctors, the inequity between business schools and other schools is proliferated. Perhaps the increase in DL doctorates may serve in the future to "equalize" business and other departments (at least at non-AACSB schools)...or perhaps not.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2010
  6. Lajazz947

    Lajazz947 New Member

    Regarding too many people

    Well, it depends on what you will use it for and how savy you are on getting it subsidized.

    I teach at the Art Institute and I plan on entering the field of academia full time, possibly as an administrator as well as faculty member.

    The parent company of the Art Institute and Argosy will pay for my Ed.D which is a real benefit so I plan on starting june 2011.
  7. cgjbl

    cgjbl New Member

    I have found this thread very interesting. It seem most individuals are under the impression their is an overabundance of DL Doctorates. The data seems to support this point. Here is a suggestion require faculty at all community colleges who seek tenure to have doctorates. Here is where DL doctorates could provide a service. It would not matter if it were a research base doctorate (PhD) or application based doctorate (DBA, EdD, DSc, DEng, DPS, etc.). Tier 3 & 4 level schools would also benefit because most are teaching colleges. Tier 1 & 2 schools would require all faculty to hold Research based doctorates from traditional B&M schools. This might change some viewpoints about the subject. Again this is just my imput.
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree with your points, but I must add that in my opinion a DL doctorate from a DL school might not be the best for tier 1 and 2 schools not only because the DL aspect but also because most DL students are part time and don't really have time to publish in credible journals. When hiring new faculty members at research schools, the main qualifier is the quality of publications, as most DL students might have none then this automatically disqualifies them for any position at tier 1 and 2 schools.

    The exception could be someone that already works in a University and produces research but needs the PhD just to qualify for a tenure track. That is why we see few people here and there working at tier 1 and 2 schools with DL PhDs from DL schools.

    Also, please bear in mind that DL doctorates are not the same as DL doctorates from DL schools. There are quite a few top tier universities that offer DL doctorate options such as University of Manchester that would qualify someone to teach at a top tier school.
  9. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    This is what I have seen among my colleagues at universities, community colleges and K-12 schools for many years. While a DL doctorate may not be the best choice for someone trying to get that full-time tenure-track faculty position at a traditional university, it may be the best choice for someone already employed as a teacher, professor or administrator who is looking to advance or to break into adjunct teaching. Many of my colleagues have received promotion and/or tenure after completing a DL doctorate.
  10. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    In the U.S., one cannot assume that a DBA or EdD would be "application-based" versus "research-based." In our study of over 100 doctoral programs in management (those both regionally accredited and accredited by either AACSB, IACBE or ACBSP) we found that all of the DBA programs were research-based and required a research dissertation. If an institution offers an EdD without a PhD, then it is most common for the EdD to be identical to a PhD. However, we are seeing an increase in project-based (as opposed to dissertation-based) EdD programs, since the Carnegie Project on the Education Doctorate a few years ago.
  11. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree with you but many people in this forum argue that getting a PhD only for being able to adjunct makes no sense.

    I would argue otherwise, I have seen recently quite a few people that make a living just as online instructors and many of them have PhDs from online schools.

    I also have seen few people coming to this forum that express a desire to do a PhD just so they can teach on the side.
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    In my mind there are two separate but connected arguments against the idea of earning a PhD for this purpose. #1 is simple. It's ROI. Return on investment. Are you going to spend 60K, maybe more? to earn a PhD just so that you can earn a thousand or three per year? Maybe it's worth it to you as a resume item or maybe you just love to teach. That's fine. Maybe you're employer is paying for a portion of your costs. That makes it better. But will you ever actually break even? Maybe, but maybe not. #2 You see because for every person you meet who is earning a nice little side income by adjunct teaching based on their PhD there's probably 50-100 people who didn't get the job and they're STILL having to pay back their loans, etc. despite never having gained that mystical adjunct status. Your argument that you know lots of people earning money doing adjunct work is quite like the person who says that Bill Gates never earned a degree so I shouldn't need to earn one either. There are thousands of people with doctoral degrees who have not been able to find university teaching positions of any kind. It's not automatic. There's no guarantee. It's a risk, a big farking risk, if that's you're primary goal.

    Now if you're passionate about your field and you're going in with eyes wide open then I would never say a discouraging word but please understand that 1) many people who enter doctoral programs never earn that degree (for a lot of different reasons)and 2) many of those that earn the degree and want to teach are never hired by anyone for that purpose. I'm sure the numbers are available somewhere but, really, it's just common sense.

    Now if you understand all that and still want to take the plunge then I say "Go for it!" If your doctoral degree is primarily for professional purposes related to your current job and you're thinking "Hey, maybe I could even teach a course somewhere." then I'd say that's great. But I would not encourage anyone to pursue a PhD for the purposes of becoming a full-time adjunct, or even for the purposes of providing a substantial (and needed) addition to their family income. To me it would be like suggesting that someone might support themselves and their family by going to the casino.
  13. jumbodog

    jumbodog New Member

    There is a real generational difference in this attitude, I perceive. Once upon a time one could make the argument that there was a "safe" route and a "risky" route but the truth is that today the entire economy is a casino. Fifteen years ago all the employees at my local Best Buy were high school grads or college drop-outs; today they all have college degrees. The economy remains frightfully competitive, long-term joblessness remains sky high, and people are looking for any edge to get ahead.

    Your reply is intelligent and cogent yet seems to hopelessly outdated, out of touch with reality. There has always been some truth to the idea that life is a lottery but now more than ever before it seems the casino is the only game in town and the only chip you have to play is your life. Is going 60K in debt for the opportunity to land a mystical adjunct job a terrible gamble? Absolutely. For many people, however, it is the only chance they have. Does it suck to be a loser, to be one of the hundred people who wont get the position and now have the additional burden of loans? It sure does. It sucks just as bad to be 30 years old and be working in a big box store because there are no middle class job left for middle class people.

    Personally, I would not advise anyone to get an on-line phd yet at the same time I would also not advise them not to. My advice would cut more deeply to the bone:

    "Good luck."

    because that is what they need no matter what they choose to do.
  14. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I wonder if the market for adjuncts is so bad as you seem to imply, my take is that the market for cheap adjunct labor seems to be on the rise as full time positions are shrinking.

    I have been working as an online adjunct for more than 13 years and started with a Master's degree, I have always been in a position to get more work that I can handle.

    This has been my personal experience but things might be different for the rest of people. I agree that online adjunct work might be hard to get for beginners but prospect graduates might also look for local opportunities.

    I still think is a bad bet to spend 60K for a risky proposition as an online PhD, however, you can always go for a cheaper option from SA that will not break you and still be able to use it to adjunct.

    If you love teaching, there are cheaper options in demand such as getting a CFA, CPA, CFP, 6 sigma, or any other certification in demand. I always receive emails calling for instructors that are certified for local colleges and training institutes.
  15. ebbwvale

    ebbwvale Member

    I have moments of dreaming about physical fitness. I am always reminded of a coach I knew once knew who, when I asked him what I should do, asked the question "fitness for what?" Whether I was intent on running or swimming or climbing mountains, each would require a different combination of fitness and a different training schedule.
    I guess education is comparable. Education for what? The issues of personal development, business, or perhaps a combination comes to mind. The PhD is a research qualification and, as I understand it, it is a very lot of work about a very limited topic. If the research is published by a reputable journal or taken up by industry, then the sky may be the limit. How many theses are actually read by many people? If your work is done by a higher ranking university then its chances of being published or used by industry must significantly increase.

    If the research is undertaken at an institution that is seen to be more about churning out PhD's than research quality, then it is unlikely to be published or taken seriously by industry. There are exceptions that seem to be more tied up with the individual doing the research than the institution in which it is being done perhaps. Generally, if you are seeking a university tenure track then do a PhD at an institution with a serious research background.

    If you think it could be useful in industry, then your experience in the industry is more likely to help. The PhD from an lesser known university acting as icing on the cake, but not the cake.

    I am confident that the Pacific economy is in recovery and will power on. DBA's may be in demand within industry here, provided they have experience in the field as well. I would suggest being bilingual would be an excellent sidebar to the Doctorate. They may not be soaked up in universities in the US. I don't know. If they are prepared to travel, Asia may present some opportunities.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2013
  16. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    I'll toss in my two cents here...

    There are teaching jobs available for online PhD grads who have experience; it just depends where you want to teach.

    A PhD from Capella, Northcentral, UPOP is very unlikely to open the door at a large institution; however, for many smaller schools that struggle to find faculty, the terminal degree is a "check the box" requirement. It's the experience (both teaching & industry) along with scholarship that open doors.

    I post relatively frequently on Capella's LinkedIn boards (disclaimer - I am a Capella University ambassador), and when questions are asked about how do I get a job in higher ed, my answer is always the same...get your foot in the door as an on-ground adjunct first, present work at conferences, and for a full-time gig, be ready to relocate. Case in point - when I returned home from Iraq in 2005, I decided to look for a full-time job in Higher Ed. I used the University of Texas listing of Community Colleges, and search EVERY website looking for employment opportunities. That's how I found my first full-time teaching position at LCO Community College - small tribal community college without funds to advertise nationally.

    I know I'm rambling a bit, so I'll end it here...

  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    In summary, the prospect PhD student has to manage expectations. Few students think that a PhD is a ticket to success and fame. It is realistic to expect to get a full time gig at a school that has trouble attracting qualified people even with a Master's degree because location or low budget but it is not realistic to expect to land a ViP position at a college or University or become a tenure track at a T1 and T2 university with a PhD from a non ranked online school. Even worst, some students come with schools that they found in exotic places that charge low tuition fees and ask if the school would help them to become a super star in the US when New York is full of taxi drivers with PhDs from foreign nations.
  18. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    For every 1 PhD employed in academia there is only less than 1 who is not - not 100. The phd graduate is less likely to be unemployed than any other graduates. The phd graduate is likely to earned more than any other graduates.s
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2013
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  20. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    This is a quote from your article "That noted, the percentage of UC Berkeley doctoral students landing a tenured faculty position is much higher (57 percent) than the national average of 41 percent."The national average is 2:3 ratio.

    The US government long term studies shows a consistent average of 1:1 ratio. The national phd hired into academia a few few months after studies was slightly more than 50% for the last 30 years. The link was posted on degreeinfo a few months ago.

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