Superiority Complex?

Re: Re: I'm confused....

"Forward-looking" statements about accreditation intentions are a common tool used by degree mills to give some semblance of credibility. They have no meaning academically. Also, SACS prohibits them. Under "Representation of Status" in SACS' Principles of Accreditation, they say:

"No statement may be made about the possible future accreditation status with the Commission on Colleges."

I mentioned that VIU is planning their accreditation application, but that is as an observer. You wouldn't expect to find such a statement on their website or other published source.

What is required here is judgment. There is a difference between a start-up university going through the initial preparations necessary to apply for accreditation and a school that has never pursued it despite operating for decades. At this point, degrees from either source mean about the same academically. But they are two entirely different situations.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bruce...example

As I recall, you once flamed me on that very point Wes. I was engaged in a protracted argument with Rich over MIGS' accreditation and you told me quite bluntly that MIGS was 'GAAP', hence it was accredited, and that I should shut up. Perhaps you would like to clarify what your own position is. Apart from a desire to flame Rich, why are you attacking him? How does your attack serve the cause of CA-approved schools? What broader point are you trying to make?

My position is that unaccredited schools need to be approached with caution. That's particularly true for students. Faculty are being paid for their trouble, and can happily dance away if the school doesn't pan out. But students are left thousands of dollars lighter and with a questionable degree.

But every new university begins without accreditation. Even a state university like CSU Monterey Bay starts out that way. President Bill Clinton spoke at its opening ceremonies, but WASC still told it that it would have to operate for a while and produce some graduates before it could become RA. A school has to work in practice and not just on paper.

There's a whole process involved: everything has to be documented, outside inspectors have to inspect, classes have to be taught and graduates have to be successfully produced.

That point was at the heart of my criticism of MIGS. In MIGS' case a new institution with some rather questionable connections appeared suddenly, immediately slipped under the wing of a little known foreign school, and started offering degrees in that other school's name that the foreign school was totally unequipped to offer by itself. I persisted ad nauseum in demanding to know what documentation and inspection process was employed by the Mexican authorities who theoretically were "accrediting" this thing. I still believe that there was none.

Again you, Wes Cox, flamed me for asking that question.

My point was not whether MIGS should exist. I believed that it should, assuming that it had the necessary legal approvals, which it seems that it didn't. I never criticized Rich for enrolling in it. How could I, when I like some of the CA-approved schools myself. My only beef was in the misleading and dangerous claim that MIGS was RA-equivalent and in plugging the gaping loophole that "GAAP" represented.

I called MIGS a "state approved school with attitude". VIU seems to be a state approved school without attitude, and that's something different.

Nevertheless, all the familiar issues regarding non-accredited schools apply to VIU. It probably would be a poor choice for most students. At this point it's kind of a gamble whether it will ever achieve RA or some other recognized accreditation.

Some schools show immediate signs that they are working towards accreditation. Others don't. At some point committees and working groups will be assigned accreditation related tasks, documentation will be prepared, outside inspectors will show up, candidacy will be announced and so on. Other schools will continue on for year after year, decade after decade, without any of that happening.

Enrollment at a non-accredited school remains an ill advised choice for many (not all) students until accreditation is finally achieved. That's just a fact. But how ill advised is a question that must be addressed on a case-by-case basis. In some cases, the gamble is a pretty safe one. California State University at Monterey Bay. No way on Earth that CSUMB isn't going to be accredited. But even here, particular program requirements may be adjusted or something. But Friends International Christian University in Merced Ca., CA-approved on a religious exemption, offering DL doctorates with "life experience credit" and "accredited" by ACI. is probably a much worse choice than CSUMB.

CCU falls in the middle someplace. It seems to offer a real educational experience, but it probably has no intention of ever seeking accreditation. Where VIU falls is a real question at this point. It may be following the path of a less well endowed CSUMB, or it may settle for being a CCU. The latter would become clear if all the talk of accreditation remains just talk indefinitely. In that case, both students and faculty may have to admit that he school's early promise isn't being met as they perhaps had hoped, and make their decisions accordingly.

 

Bill, I haven't flamed Rich nor have I attacked him. Rich is known for speaking his mind and laying his card out on the table.

About MIGS, I did in fact believe at the time -- as did Rich -- that MIGS possessed the necessary qualifications, if will, to operate as a GAAP accredited institution. I was a bystander looking in but Rich to a large degree was an instander. Despite having access to greater information than we (outsiders) were exposed to, it took Rich approximately one year to realize he'd wasted a lot of time and energy.

Why do you keep bring up CCU? All I have ever said about CCU was that I have been impressed with the operation as a whole and furthermore that although not RA the BPPVE is a quality assurance mechanism that meets my needs. I have since learned that a CCU Psy.D. -- since unaccredited -- might pose some problems for me with regard to ethical standards set forth by a professional commission of which I am certified. Because of this I have decided to withdraw from the CCU Psy.D. program. I'm in the process of consulting with informed sources in an effort to determine if the CCU DBA will meet my needs.

I am glad that Rich is teaching at an unaccredited university as it will provide him with an enriching experience firsthand on the quality of education or potential thereof offered by unaccredited institutions. I have a hard time knowing that many people work hard and earn a solid education but can't receive maximum benefit from the knowledge gained due to the lack of accreditation. Another method should be developed to evaluate someone’s' education.

On a closing note, I do find it hypocritical that Rich has preached in the past that he would never recommend an unaccredited bachelors degree to anyone, but assist in degree completion of an unaccredited degree both bachelors and masters. If Rich has changed this position and thought process, I'd understand but as of now I am confused.

 

Okay, its not a flame. But I'm a hypocrite? Thanks.

Just because I don't recommend--generally--unaccredited degrees doesn't mean I have to wait for VIU's accreditation to come through before teaching there. How else will the school get accredited if it doesn't offer classes (and, therefore, have instructors)?

Would you have said the same about someone teaching at Walden, Fielding, The Union, or any traditional school that was new and not yet accredited? If so, we disagree and we're done. If not, then hypocrisy might be a tad more widespread than recently reported. At any length, this exercise does nothing to add to the subject.

 

Rich,

I believe that you can teach at an unaccredited school and yet recommend that those who wish to earn B.A.'s pursue them at accredited institutions. My assumption is that you are teaching at this school because you believe that it is sincere about at some point pursuing accreditation and is not a mill or a perpetual second rate state approved school.

Your point about Walden (etc) is well taken. One of the facts of life is that someone had to teach at the TGSA/Capella's while they were unaccredited and in TGSA's case the subject of some very negative remarks by reps from the state university system (as I recall Dr. B stating). Students had to also attend while the school was in the process.

All in all you may end up being wrong about VIU, but that is life (ie no guarentees). You are not deliberately associating with a mill.

North

 

Re: Re: Re: Bruce...example

A review of your posts to this thread tell another story.

The only time I mentioned it was in my last post. But I do suspect that you are very resentful because it was not accepted with open arms by others here. You seem particularly resentful at Rich.

If that was all you said, then I would have had no reason to disagree with you.

My problem with some of your past posts was that you seemed to me to go well beyond that to argue that CA-approval was the equivalent of regional accreditation.

I have posted several times in the past about CA-approved schools that I like. I have even argued that several of them are **better for SOME students** than some RA programs. Personally, when it comes to religious studies at the doctoral level, I like Hsi Lai University a lot more than many of the RA and even ATS seminaries that are discussed here. For example, Hsi Lai has a much better program than Regent's new Ph.D. in religious studies, *for my purposes*. (Hsi Lai isn't a DL program, and I mention it only as an illustration.)

If it does, who am I to argue? I wish you all the best, Wes.

Again we part company.

We either have a quality assurance standard or we don't. If we do, then that standard is either mandatory or voluntary. If we have a voluntary standard, then some schools will opt to meet it and others won't. That's our present situation.

What alternative is there? Making the voluntary standard mandatory? If you did that, non-accredited schools would simply become illegal. That wouldn't help their cause.

Eliminating standards entirely? That would render degrees meaningless.

It seems to me that you are angry because non-accredited schools aren't accepted *as if* they were accredited.

You want to retain the standard set by accreditation, and you want to retain the option of not being accredited. But then you want to protect schools that opt out of accreditation from the consequences of not being recognized as accredited.

I like Hsi Lai University. I could imagine enrolling there. I could even imagine teaching there (were I qualified). But would I recommend it to others? Unlikely, except in special cases. I would want to know a lot about somebody before I would recommend a non-accredited university to him or her. I would assume the responsibility for such a choice much more readily for myself than for another.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that that's incoherent. Let's assume that it's rank hypocrisy. What benefit does the world of non-accredited universities gain from my hypocrisy? If my actions don't match my rhetoric, does some non-accredited university somehow become a better choice for somebody else? Isn't that ridiculous?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bruce...example

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not resentful that my decision to pursue the CCU Psy.D. Wasn’t received well. I expected as much from this NG.

I don't have a problem with QA standards for institutions of higher learning but I do have a problem with the political hoops that the RA's require applicant institutions to jump through. Although I haven't the evidence at this point, I am quite confident that the whole institution of voluntary accreditation is a flawed system. I find it difficult to accept the fact that RA institutions rarely if ever award transfer credit for courses completed at an institution which is not RA. This rigid process will SLOW the progress of taking education to the people, DL versus the residential courses. What really gets me is these same colleges hire unaccredited degree holders. I can only imagine the number of doctoral degree holders from pre-accredited Walden, Sarasota, Nova, Capella, Union etc that are teaching at RA colleges. The RA's will bend the rules when they need to for their benefit. Accredited is accredited and unaccredited is unaccredited, period. Either adhere to the standard or don't. I believe a future study could be done to expose the imperfection of the RA's.

Just because a college doesn't pursue accreditation doesn't mean that a quality education is not earned. We seem to agree on this topic though. To me a degree holder should be evaluated for work performed and knowledge gained not just because the college the degree was earned from is RA.

I'm here to tell you I have sat through many of worthless RA classes, but because these courses are taught at a large relatively well respect university, no one cares.

I have become so interested in the subject I intend to prepare a dissertation on the topic. When the time comes I hope to consult Rich Douglas, quite possibly as a committee member. To some degree it upsets me that Rich finds my comments offensive. All I am doing is debating an issue, and calling to his attention his behaviors.

About CCU, It wasn't you who continued bring up the CCU issue. I was confused, and for that I am sorry.

On the CCU topic though, you previous misconstrued my comments regarding the CA BPPVE. At one point, I wrote that some of the CA BPPVE approved colleges might not even provide adequate educational services. The same can be said for some RA colleges. Remember the stamp of RA accreditation simply means that the college in question has convinced a group of peers that minimal standards have been met. The key word here is "minimal." I also struggle with the fact that the RA's make it so difficult and laborsome to obtain accreditation but then do little to enforce the standard. Again, I refer to my experience of spending nine years on the campuses of Florida and Tennessee. Both of these universities have numerous courses that everyone knows anyone can make an "A" in. To me, the RA's need to spend a majority of their time correcting some of these issues rather than overwhelming an applicant college. However, the rich little start-up can always fork over a $500K donation to any of the RA's and I'd bet my house that this applicant college is awarded accreditation.

I am starting to ramble so I'll close for now.

Regards, Wes

 

There are many examples of protocols, systems or standards that may seem cumbersome or unwarranted in our daily lives. At the same time, these bureacratic processes provide a structure and a standardization that society requires to function effectively and with clearly delineated boundaries.

The RA process provides a similar function. Yes, one can resist or detest it and if they wish protest against it. However, the fact remains that it is a necessary system that provides society with assurance that the educational institution and graduate have met specified criteria that is congruent with a standardized process. Without it, anything goes, including not having a monitoring system that provides a check and balance to maintain minimum standards relating to the actions and educational process of the school as well as the level and quality of the educational process.

Yes, it is true that there are anecdotal examples of RA schools that may buck the system and do not live up to these standards. However, this does not effect the significance of this process or its necessity.

 

Over the last 24 years that I've been doing this, I've talked with thousands of people regarding nontraditional higher education. By far, the first--and often only--question that gets asked is either:

"Where is it (the school)?"

or

"Is it accredited?"

It doesn't matter that the person asking about accreditation doesn't know what he/she is asking. "Yes" or "No" says volumes, and there really isn't room for "No, but...." I believe it is this distinction that gives DETC accreditation more weight in the workplace than in academia. With DETC-accredited schools, the answer is "Yes." With California-approved schools, the answer is decidedly "No." I also believe this limits the utility of their degrees largely to situations where that question is not asked.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bruce...example

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is a quoted response from VIU when posed the question of accreditation status.


Dear David,
Thank you for your inquiry and interest in VIU. Yes, VIU is an accredited instituition by Virginia Higher Education Instition. Our
credits are recognized by all university in the United States. If you want to learn more about our university please see our website.
We would like to provide you with the most current information about Virginia International University. I am sending you our e-mail
catalogues and brochures version. If you want to know more about specific majors that are listed here, let us know. We will be glad
to assist you. Here are the programs which VIU offers.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this simply a case of an uninformed source or blatant misrepresentation? In either event the information is INACCURATE!

Regards, DWCox

 

FMU is a great school, but unfortunately they are not Regionally Accredited.

Some of my fellow classmates including myself have been accepted at some of the state/non-for profit Universities such as Nova, Barry, Florida Atlantic U, and Florida International Universities.

The big difference is that the school in itself has had an articulation agreement among these respective schools for sometime.

 

National Accreditation

In looking for a reference to the "Monterey Institute for Graduate Studies" referenced in the post about the threats by Rose Donatelli Venneri, I stumbled onto this thread. The VIU website now makes reference to having "started our national accreditation". Is this to mean DETC accreditation?

Rich Douglas took (IMHO) a lot of arrows in this thread for teaching at this school. When I looked on the faculty page of the school, I did not find Mr. Douglas listed as faculty. Rich are you still teaching here? If so, do you still hold the opinions about this school that you held at the time this thread was started?

Sorry to bring up another potential time-bomb, but the arguments in this thread are very interesting, and I am curious as to how time has affected this situation.

Sean

 

Re: National Accreditation

Unlikely. VIU is not a distance learning institution.




Tom Nixon

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bruce...example

<deleted by moderator>

 

What year is this?
When you used the search function on VIU, what did you find?

 

Me thinks Agreeable is less than.

 

I did not do a search on VUI. I had never heard of VUI before. I came upon this post in researching the information offered up by Chip in response to the Donnelli woman.

I ask about this because it has been about 2 1/2 years and the argument was, in part, about regional accredetiation. I wanted to see if this school was indeed doing anything to gain regional accreditation. That does not appear to be the case, other than having "a Contact Person for accreditation with the Southern Association's Commission on Colleges and Schools", which could mean almost anything.

 

It's a funny concern from a defender of Clayton "College" of Natural Health, but what do I know?

 

Surely you are not referring to me about the Clayton College of Natural Health, since I have never heard of it. What? I am not neurotic!!

 

Re: National Accreditation

The last I heard, VIU was preparing their application to ACICS, as I'd recommended to them.

I haven't taught for VIU in about a year. While I didn't request they remove me from their faculty, it would seem appropriate.

I'm concerned about VIU's financial viability. As a tuition-based school recruiting students from overseas to come to Virginia to study, they were hurt badly by the restrictions on immigration put in place after the 9/11 disaster. But the school has a strong local backing--the community has reached out to it. I suspect their bid for accreditation will eventually be successful. And I'm glad I was there to help them build their programs. If they're successful at getting accredited, they'll likely be able to recruit local (American) students.