Study Law Online

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kizmet, Mar 27, 2018.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    That's true, I suppose, but the employee might have to explain why he isn't a licensed attorney. I don't know; as with any other degree, what matters is the use to which the individual holder puts it.
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Speaking of which, and as an aside, Taft Law is looking for adjuncts. I'm thinking of sending them a resume.
     
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  3. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    Yes! Very unlikely you can get a job with a non accredited degree; while all law licenses may be equal, all JDs are not. Second, many jobs specifically require an accredited California or ABA degree. Third, without great contortions, the only jurisdictions you can easily practice in besides California are some federal courts and the District of Colombia. What you can do is go into business for yourself in California.
     
  4. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    They usually require an ABA degree. The unaccredited D/L California law degree is not recognized in most jurisdictions, so you cannot even take the bar. District of Colombia is the exception, you can motion into the DC Bar after 5 years. There may be a few other exceptions but they require a lot of hassle.
     
  5. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    If a JD is attempting to set themselves apart from a flood of MBA candidates for a given position, my natural assumption is that most likely it's a entry/mid-level or junior executive style position. As if they're experienced and known in their field, even a non-legal field, I wouldn't see a flood of MBA candidates being an issue to contend with. Simply personal opinion and my personal experience, wasn't trying to have a disagreement. I just don't see the value for someone who's beyond looking at entry level positions, and barely see the value of it in those situations. Again, personal opinion.
     
  6. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    I think since the Executive JD has no real utility, the holder cannot practice law, they are not even a paralegal and it is unlikely they would be hired as a law professor; it is a vanity degree. The sole advantage therefore is they do not have to take and pass the California First Year Bar Exam which has a high failure rate in order to proceed to the second year etc. They might do better to get an online English Bachelor of Law which actually can qualify one to take the bar in the US or practice as a solicitor in England. It only takes 3 years too.
     
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    The bad news: A foreign LLB from a common law system (including England) by itself doesn't qualify one to sit the bar anywhere in the U.S. In some states, with an additional specifically tailored LLM one can sit the bar, including California, New York, Wisconsin, D.C., and Maryland. I believe there are a few others, but I haven't needed to keep up to date on it, so curious parties can check NCBE: http://www.ncbex.org/publications/bar-admissions-guide/

    The good news: For those who already have a Bachelor's degree or higher, the UK Open University has a "graduate entry" option for their LLB that only takes two years full time: http://www.openuniversity.edu/courses/qualifications/q80
     
    sideman likes this.
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Minor quibble, in New York, an LLM is only required if the Bar Examiners determine your foreign education requires a deficiency in your education be "cured." They have quite a few rules, and it looks rather complex. Basically, you need to submit your credentials for evaluation. However, it is possible to be allowed to sit for the bar without an LLM. The lawyer who prepared my will, for example, has only an LLB from a South African university and is admitted in New York. You also cannot just go get an LLM and show up expecting to take the Bar, you have to apply to be allowed to pursue an LLM to cure a deficiency. I would assume that this is because, depending on the deficiency they find, it may require special provisions.

    Either way, I believe New York also requires that you have been admitted in that foreign jurisdiction practice there for some number of years as well but I didn't want to do a full dive on this.

    https://www.nybarexam.org/Foreign/ForeignLegalEducation.htm
     
  9. sideman

    sideman Active Member

    Just another thing to consider (and there always is isn't there?) is that the odds of completion are not favorable to anyone as a distance law student. There are a lot of first year law students that are eager to "learn the law". But when they find out just how much time is involved many start to fall by the wayside. When I attended NWCU there were about 400 or so of us that hit the ground running. By the time I completed the fourth year there was about 20 of us left. That factors out to be about 95% dropped for one reason or another. So if you are considering going this route keep this in mind. I always have recommended that anyone that is considering going to law school as an adult with other responsibilities such as family, work, etc. to try to attend a local ABA school at night. Sometimes, like in my case, it wasn't possible, but do consider how much it will effect your life. Everyone in the family, especially your significant other, must be on board with your goal.

    And these dropout rates may indeed be what we witness with some ABA schools embracing the concept of distance learning. It remains to be seen how many will push through to the end. But it is an option, and one whose time has come. And all the naysayers will watch and perhaps hope that it'll be a complete and utter flop. But as advocates of distance learning we have to continue to prove to law schools that this is a viable way to learn law and to embrace technology and escape the old school way of thinking that butt-in-seat is the only way to get a good legal education.
     
  10. copper

    copper Active Member

    So a 95% drop out rate and California reports about a 20% Bar passage rate or less for schools unaccredited by ABA. Sounds like a pure of waste of time and money! Where do I sign up?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  11. copper

    copper Active Member

    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    In Massachusetts there are 2 schools that I know of (MassLaw and NELaw) that have part-time (weekend) programs. I think they're very popular for the exact reasons you stated.
     
  13. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    If a student can get their bar ticket, they can take the California bar unlimited times. So the odds are better than 20%. But even from ABA schools, some students never pass the Califoria bar.
     
  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The California Bar Exam is notoriously difficult but the First Year Law Student's Exam washes out about 80% of its takers before they even GET to the bar exam point. When comparing pass rates between CalBar accredited and unaccredited schools, that fact needs to be kept in mind. CalBar schools do a much better job of preparing their students for the CBX. Nevertheless, correspondence students who persevere can and do become California attorneys.

    Slightly off-topic, though...graduates of the so-called "National Law Schools", places like Harvard and Georgetown and Chicago, far and away pass the CBX (and every other state bar exam) on their first attempt unlike graduates of more "middling" ABA schools. Given that the curriculum of any ABA law school is about the same as that of any other ABA law school, it seems to me that the difference in results by school is probably tied to the students' pre-law preparation. A comparison of entering class LSAT scores and UGPA bears this out. So does this suggest that a student at a CalBar accredited school with first rate LSAT scores and UGPA will stand as good a chance of passing the CBX on the first try as the average Chicago Law grad? I don't know. It would make for an interesting research project.
     
  15. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    It doesn't sound like it's necessarily a waste. It's numbers are going to suffer the same way a community college's completion rates will suffer. To go to an ABA accredited law school you generally need good grades. You need to at least take the LSAT (generally) and you need good scores to get into a good law school. If you open the doors and say pretty much anyone can walk in then you're not going to have high completion rates and your bar passage rate is going to be low. It doesn't necessarily mean the school can't teach. But when a school cannot cherry pick the best students out of the applicant pool you're going to get some different results.

    Have Stanford or Yale open up admission to anyone who wants it regardless of previous academic performance for three years and see what their average bar passage rate turns out to be.
     
  16. copper

    copper Active Member

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  17. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    Point is this: The online JDs that will in theory allow you to practice one day are either clearly registered with the California Bar or from well known universities in England. The only online "Executive JD" I know of that is regionally accredited is Concord. All the rest are caveat emptor like this one: www.novus.edu
     
  18. sideman

    sideman Active Member

    I agree with you about Novus and there are others as well. However, Northwestern California University of Law has served me and others well. Remember that they're one of the three (including Concord) that's applying for CalBar accreditation and of course is registered with the CBE as an unaccredited distance law school that qualifies students to take the bar. So let's not give the impression that Concord is the only legitimate distance law school to those looking in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  19. jonlevy

    jonlevy Member

    This is the entire list of the DL and correspondence law schools California recognizes.

    Registered unaccredited correspondence law schools
    The following institutions are currently registered by the Committee of Bar Examiners of the State Bar of California as unaccredited correspondence law schools. A correspondence law school is a law school that conducts instruction principally by correspondence. A correspondence law school must require at least 864 hours of preparation and study per year for four years.

    American Institute of Law
    18411 Crenshaw Boulevard, Suite 416
    Torrance, CA 90504
    888-412-4593
    www.InstituteOfLaw.com
    Northwestern California University
    School of Law

    2151 River Plaza Drive, Suite 306
    Sacramento, CA 95833
    916-920-9470
    www.nwculaw.edu
    American International School of Law
    16491 Scientific Way
    Irvine, CA 92618
    888-875-5175
    www.aisol.org
    Oak Brook College of Law and Government Policy
    P.O. Box 26870
    Fresno, CA 93729
    559-650-7755
    www.obcl.edu
    California Southern University
    School of Law

    3330 Harbor Boulevard
    Costa Mesa, CA 92626
    800-477-2254
    ww.calsouthern.edu
    Taft Law School
    3700 South Susan Street, Office 200
    Santa Ana, CA 92704-6954
    800-882-4555
    www.taftu.edu
    San Francisco International University College of Law
    400 Oyster Point Boulevard, Suite 422
    South San Francisco, CA 94080
    415-812-5115
    www.sfiulaw.com

    Registered unaccredited distance learning law schools in California
    The following institutions are currently registered by the State Bar's Committee of Bar Examiners as unaccredited distance-learning law schools. A distance-learning law school is a law school that conducts instruction and provides interactive classes principally by technological means. A distance-learning law school must require at least 864 hours of preparation and study per year for four years.

    Abraham Lincoln University
    School of Law

    100 W. Broadway, Suite 600
    Glendale, CA 91210
    213-252-5100
    www.alu.edu
    Concord Law School at Purdue University Global
    10100 Santa Monica Boulevard, Suite 362
    Los Angeles, CA 90067
    866-522-7747
    www.concordlawschool.edu
    American Heritage University
    School of Law

    1802 East G Street
    Ontario, CA 91764
    888-484-8689
    www.ahulaw.com
    St. Francis School of Law
    895 Dove Street, 3rd Floor
    Newport Beach, CA 92660
    800-931-2694
    www.stfrancislaw.com
    California School of Law
    5276 Hollister Avenue, #262
    Santa Barbara, CA 93111
    844-500-9200
    www.californiaschooloflaw.com
     
  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    That's more schools than I would have expected.
     

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