Strange happenings on degreeinfo and a.e.d....

Please keep the topic of messages in this (and all other threads) away from personal attacks.

Thanks

 

Chip, I don't see where the previous message to which you refer, attacks anyone personally. Whereas, the whole object of the scandalous scheme of subterfuge appears to have been to: "smoke" someone out, so that the perpetrators of said "smokeout" may personally attack the "smoked" person. If not, what other purpose could there be?

Gary

 

You bring up a good point, as relevant to this discussion as any other. It's not attacking anyone personally to bring up the fact that every minute of one's life spent on usenet, this forum, or any aspect of the WWW (worldwide waste of time), is another minute of one's life on this earth gone. Another minute that could have been spent with family and friends, in reality rather than virtual reality. For more on how escapades such as this affect one's life, three good references: "Silicon Snake Oil" and "High-Tech Heretic" by Clifford Stoll, a WWW pioneer with second thoughts, and Minutes of the Lead Pencil Club" edited by Bill Henderson an anthology of anti-virtual reality treatises.

Chip and fellow perpetrators of the admitted scam scheme believe they are making a difference with diploma mills, but they only succeed in three things: highlighting some obvious scam mills, casting a shadow on legitate yet unaccredited schools and their students, and feeling a fleeting sense of power and altruism while losing time in the real world. To everyone: the more you can break away from this mesmerizing screen the better. Hug your family and friends. Mine are waiting for me now, to join them off-line. If I fade away from this BS, it will be because I've joined Dr. Bear in getting off this Internet addiction. Will we ever be able to do it? With God's help, all things are possible. And the beat goes on.

Gary

 

Well Gary, I speak only for myself, but if anything I do stops even one person from turning money over to degree mill, then I consider it time well spent. Besides ripping off people, mills cast a cloud of suspicion over *all* DL programs in the eyes of many people, and that's something we can't allow to happen.

Bruce

 

Here, here, Bruce! With this statement I am in full agreement. I have on numbers of occasions advised people against particular schools, programs, etc. In just a few weeks I am participating in a seminar, my subject matter will be educational opportunities for pastors of small churches. I will caution these men/women relative to the many degree mills which exist, and will encourage them to avoid all questionable institutions.

What is amazing to me, is that so many are not even aware of such schools. So, yes, if my efforts can deter one person from pursuing a degree mill degree, it is time well spent.

Russell

 

Bruce and Russ, I appreciate your sharing of altruistic goals. I also recognize the quest to help distance learning's reputation be as unblemished as possible. Consider, however, that just as many people may be steered into diploma mills as are steered away by your exposes. Even though the contact sites and phones are deleted here, and in Bear's Guide, it is a very simple matter nowadays to keyboard the name into any search engine, and locate the school. The free advertising may cancel out the warnings. Just as not responding to a nonsensical poster seems to be the best medicine, i.e. the historical spammers on AED, perhaps not even mentioning the names of no-doubt-about-it degree mills may be wiser. As far as trying to help the reputation of DL, I believe it was Ben Franklin who, upon reflecting on the American system of justice: "Better a thousand guilty men go free, rather than one innocent man be unjustly accused." That's the way I rememember it, anyway. I would relate that to DL as "Better a thousand guilty diploma mills go free, rather than one legitimate yet unaccredited school be unjustly accused." Just as legitimate businesses of all types withstand the crooked businesses of all types, DL will withstand the similar popping up and closing down of degree mills.

Gary

 

Gary, those people aren't the ones that I'm worried about. If someone truly wants to skate by with a diploma mill degree, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do to stop them. Nor would I try. They're on their own, the time bomb they place in their resume will eventually detonate. And it will, sooner or later.

What I am concerned about are the people who really want a legitimate education and a legitimate degree. Those people need to know the truth regarding accreditation and acceptance of degrees. I believe that is one of the central reasons this discussion board was created.

Bruce

 

The sooner they find out the better. If they can be told before spending time and money it is the best.

For those people that are determined to plant a time bomb in their resume, IMHO, it would be better to save their money and just claim a bogus degree than send money off to a con-artist. I suspect that most of the time bombs are in fact of this type.

 

Bruce,

I agree with you.

I have discovered much here, and I've found comraderie with several people. I have gotten some good leads to some very reputable, accredited schools. In short, this board has been of inestimable value to me.

 

Gary, you are correct in your observation. However, if someone is intent on obtaining a degree mill degree---they will certainly do so. And since we live in a free society, that is their choice. If this wasn't the case, most degree mills would not exist.

My concern is that segment of society (really anyone, but in my case, especially those in the area of ministry), which is not aware of the tactics of degree mills. Through slick advertising and promises of an easy route, they deceive the unwary student into enrolling in their worthless programs. Those who are sincere in their desire for a credential which has merit, are the ones which I hope to facilitate. I believe that if most people could see the broad picture of what a degree mill degree has the potential of doing (negatively), they would not want such a degree.

Russell

 

I don't think that is accomplished by sweeping the mills under the rug.

So in effect you are suggesting that this group lay off the mills and leave them alone. But if we don't discuss them, then who will?

Personally, I like talking about them. And when I talk about one, I usually provide a link to its site so that others can know what I'm talking about and admire it for themselves.

They are all over the web. They are all over the portals like Yahoo. They have a whole network of bogus "educational counselors" recommending them. They are appearing in otherwise very reputable university guides like Peterson's (apparently after paying Peterson's editors to look the other way). They are scrambling over weird off-shore jurisdictions and trying to worm their way into the International Handbook of Universities.

They are already here, and here in a big way. There are hundreds and hundreds of them. The majority of "universities" that offer doctorates by distance education are already degree mills. They represent a significant percentage of DL. Phony universities are no longer a 'mom-and-pop' business as they were when Dr. Bear first began his guides, they have become an industry, run by professionals.

Well, they are gonna sink the distance education ship for all of us if we don't watch out. If the general pubic, and the professional communities, come to associate "DL" with "bogus", we are all in trouble. It's happening already: comedians can get laughs with the phrase "internet university".

Nothing this group does will make the degree mills more prominent than they already are. But it might get out some information (that is available virtually nowhere else) about why these mills are best avoided.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

The position stated by Gary is indefinsible, IMHO. It's analogous to the police not being able to suspect anyone of a crime until they're sure that the suspect did it. It's analogous to me not being able to publically mention that I believe that someone or an institution may be guilty of some crime. The legal protection of innocent until proven guilty already applies to corporations and degree mill owners. Nobody has argued against that. Publicly warning people about probable degree mills is much different from putting degree mill operators in jail or fining a corporation. Different standards should and do apply to these two completely different situations.

 

Well Bill, I will have to clarify, in defense of my opinion. I disagree with your analogy. My central point is that legitimate yet unaccredited schools too often get thrown in with the degree mills. Of course, many are of the opinion that any non-RA school is automatically a degree mill, unless maybe (perhaps) they are a candidate for RA. Which is so kind, since no school can start out being RA. I believe there is room for schools like Bob Jones University, California Coast, and even a Pacific Western University in this great big country. They are in no danger of closing down the RAs. Actually, this forum is in no danger of closing down legitimate unaccredited schools, so I shouldn't be so concerned. Have fun,

Gary

 

Originally posted by Gary Bonus:
Of course, many are of the opinion that any non-RA school is automatically a degree mill, unless maybe (perhaps) they are a candidate for RA.


I don't know who "many" is, but I don't think that's the opinion of any of the regulars here. (see below)


I believe there is room for schools like Bob Jones University, California Coast, and even a Pacific Western University in this great big country.


And *no one* has called Bob Jones a degree mill... indeed, their degrees are recognized by most RA schools as equivalent to RA, because there is no question that, while their doctrine is a little on the wacky side, the academic rigor is quite up to par.

As for Cal Coast, I'll agree it's not a mill... although I'm not sure they are completely up front with students about the limitations of the Cal-approved degree.

Actually, this forum is in no danger of closing down legitimate unaccredited schools, so I shouldn't be so concerned.

Agreed. The schools that *should* be concerned about being closed down are the winners like Earlscroft, Capitol, Trinity, Columbus, HERI, the Greek clone of HERI, Hamilton, Washington International, and the hundreds of similar scams. *Those* folks have reason to be concerned, because there's a pretty good track record so far of getting phonies shut down, even if it does take a while.

 

From my point of view, the statements in your last post are very significantly different from your first post. I understand and agree that unaccredited does not automatically equal degree mill.

My view is these are two different situations.
1. Someone asks for help in selecting a school.
2. Unaccredited school versus degree mill.

For number one the best choice is almost always going to be RA (within the USA of course). Possibly you're seeing number one being addressed and then assuming that it applies to the second situation?

But in any case, if I think a school looks like a degree mill, I will call it a degree mill and this is totally different from the legal system where the prosecution must prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

What is a "legitimate yet unaccredited school"?

Accreditation, as flawed as it is, provides a criterion of legitimacy. In fact it is the criterion of legitimacy that is the best recognized in the academic and professional communities and hence has the most utility.

If a non-accredited school wants to be perceived as legitimate, then it will have to meet some other alternative criterion of legitimacy.

There are forms of institutional accreditation besides regional accreditation. Degreeinfo has discussed DETC in nauseating detail. There is ACICS, AABC and TRACS. Many stand-alone art schools operate with professional accreditation by NASAD in place of accreditation by the institutional accreditors. There are other examples. But the fact remains that regional accreditation is the most widely respected, except in special situations.

But more fundamentally, if a school lacks any recognized accreditation, then the burden of proof is on that school to demonstrate its legitimacy in some other way. There is no obligation for everyone else to simply assume that a non-accredited school is legitimate without being given good reason to believe that it is.

And that would still leave open the question of the utility of degrees from these alternative non-accredited schools. If the degrees are not widely accepted by the academic and professional communities, then that in itself may be reason to avoid them except in special situations.

No, but they can achieve candidacy even before they graduate their first class.

I don't have a lot of problem with the existence of CA-approved-level schools. I include Bob Jones in that class. A few of them almost certainly overlap RA quality. BUT THEY HAVE TO PROVE IT.

As I've said before, the Institute of Buddhist Studies in Mountain View has entered into a Potch-GST-style arrangement where you can study at the CA-approved IBS for a Graduate Theological Union degree. Obviously the GTU thinks that IBS is RA quality and is willing to put their degrees where their mouth is, apparently with WASC's blessing. The CA-approved San Francisco Law School has a success rate of about 70% (I believe) on the California bar exam, which rivals some ABA schools.

Well, both these examples show that some state-approved schools can find alternative ways to demonstrate their credibility and academic equivalence. But it is very rare.

True.