Stealth H-1b increase for IT

LOU DOBBS TONIGHT

Aired October 18, 2005 - 18:00 ET

...
DOBBS: There's shocking new evidence tonight that high-paying U.S.
technology jobs face a continued and growing threat from cheap foreign
labor markets. Foreign competition that has already decimated our
nation's manufacturing workforce is now threatening the jobs of middle
class technology workers.

Christine Romans has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The middle class
American technology worker is under siege. In the last year, more job
losses for workers in computer chip manufacturing and electronic
components, and barely any growth at all in telecommunication. In
fact, according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas, job cuts in
technology are up 20 percent this year over last.

JOHN CHALLENGER, CHALLENGER, GRAY & CHRISTMAS: It looks as though the
middle class, these tech workers, just aren't participating in the
recovery that's been going on.

ROMANS: He says even as technology spending grows, executives prefer
to add workers through outsourcing and mergers. It's why the
unemployment rate for computer programmers is worse than the national
average.

Yet, as jobs are scarce in information technology, the Senate
Judiciary Committee is considering letting more foreign workers in to
do those jobs by raising the number of H1B visas sold to foreign
workers. Under a draft of the proposal obtained by LOU DOBBS TONIGHT,
those visas would be sold for $500 each to 60,000 workers each year
for the next five years. That's on top of the annual cap of 65,000 a
year.

Critics say essentially it is selling visas at the expense of American
workers.

KIM BERRY, THE PROGRAMMERS GUILD: And to have these congressmen, many
of them quite rich, to be even sitting behind closed doors or open
doors, to consider whether or not to sell out another 60,000 U.S.
workers for $500 each is simply outrageous.

ROMANS: He suggests raising the fee for H1B visas to $5,000, making
companies more likely to at least consider Americans for tech jobs
first.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Numerous sources, including a Senate Judiciary Committee
staffer, tell us Senator Arlen Specter is the architect of this
proposal to offer more H1B visas. Despite several calls, his office
would not comment to the program.

But critics say given higher-than-average unemployment in some
computer careers, and fraud, frankly, in the H1B visa program, it just
doesn't make any sense, Lou, to let more foreign workers in when
there's a scarcity of these jobs in the first place. That's just
putting American workers at a disadvantage.

DOBBS: Again, and still. And the fact is, the only sense it does make
is the sense it's prevailing. That is, that it's providing cheap labor
instead of quality, but more expensive labor. Imagine that, paying a
prevailing wage to hard-working middle class Americans.

I can't wait to see whether or not the Senate Judiciary Committee and
Senator Specter's office will see fit to respond us to, because when
you start talking about stripping 60,000 jobs from the technology
industry that should be going to Americans, that does require some
explanation.

Thank you very much, Christine Romans. Amazing.

 

When I read the material referring to the H1B process as "sale", I wonder - where else they are... mmm... being inaccurate?

Anyways, as a foreign student, I, naturally, voted for "We need more H1Bs". BTW, have you checked CS enrollment trends?

 

Re: Re: Stealth H-1b increase for IT

Not sure what you mean by inaccurate here. Please explain. This is a proposal they are looking at. How is that inaccurate?

I would expect foreigners to be hot for an open door policy to the U.S.

 

It's only going to continue whether

we agree with it or not and it's part of the larger reality that corporations in America are determined to get the cheapest labor, even if it costs them quality/clients. I know there are exceptions, but public companies will continue to outsource jobs to nations w/educated cheaper employees and import cheaper labor. I don't have a solution for the American labor force except to join 'em if you can't beat 'em (that is, become an outsourcer)...but are there any solutions? Also, Dobbs had a great story on about a doctored jobs report. I didn't see any other coverage of it.
http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/05/1012/art1.html

I know I shouldn't drag this post into the bizarre realm of the DI-Politics board, but this issue is clearly political and I see the disturbing pattern of this administration to simply bury or alter any government collected data it chooses. It is bothersome and worrisome. This website has more examples that support my view.
http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=1127

 

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Oh puh-lease. Visas are not sold. Those guys use inaccurate label to elicit desired emotional responce. This is called propaganda. In this light, are we suppose to believe other claims they make, i. e. did they get the details of proposed change right? is there really job scarsity in I. T.? is the unemployment rate really higher for IT workers (I personally doubt it. Other international students seem to find jobs just fine, and, no, it is NOT easier for them, more visas or less visas)? ultimately, are american workers really at such a disadvantage (and seeing H1Bs fighting to get those Green Cards makes this notion especially hard to beleive)? I am not that motivated to finding out these facts: assessing "truthfullness" of propaganda is IMHO a waste of time.

If I were in a mood for some flame war, I would reply with an equally irrelevant "I would expect sub-competitive American workers to be hot for a short-sighted isolationist policy to the U.S.". But I openly admit that my position on this issue, absent a reliable information, is motivated mostly by self-interest (along with some corporate solidarity)? Isn't yours?

 

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First, it is in fact selling likely to go on. They will require H-1's to pay a "fee" of $500, or more, to get a limited number of visas. Paying something to get something is not selling and buying? What is the definition of selling in your country?

Why do foreigners fight for those green cards? Because this is the land of freedom, the land of opportunity, the land where dreams are possible. It's not so possible in Mexico, Russia, Poland, Ukraine, India, Africa, etc. Why do foreign students get those jobs? Because they are the cheapest labor.

No. My interests are not mainly motivated by self-interests as yours are. I feel my position is relatively safe. My company works a bit differently than others and I can move to a scientific job if mine goes away, as I have been crossed trained in chemistry. What we are looking at is a way of life as a country, our rights, and a control of our economy and borders. Also, trying to reign in unscrupulous politicians that would sell Americans out is a large motivator, too.

Shortage. Please. See anyone going down to Houston or New Orleans offering to train up the jobless there in IT?

Actually, I am in favor of being more of an isolationist nation. I also want us to start controlling our borders and killing these visa programs. But, there is no money in it for politicians. So, what is the chance of isolation and control.

 

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So tell me, for how much money did you purchase your degree?

...for people with citizenships or permanent residence, AKA "the Americans". My point exactly! To say that "foreigners" have more opportunities than "american workers" is just a lie. Not that I'm not grateful for those opportunities that ARE available to us foreigners: USA is probably still the coolest country in this regard.

Well, I don't see my current position as a graduate teaching assistant as particularly risky, either. And most of the students coming here (my competition) are Indian and Chinese, so my self-interest would be the same as yours. But that would be just hypocritical.

Good luck then. I dunno, maybe try not to vote for those politicians? Surely you can't blaim it on foreigners: we don't vote!

 

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Well, it's not so much a foreigner issue as it with corrupt politicians, Stanislav.

Oh, by the way, you don't have to vote to make an impact here. Just have the numbers and they will gerrymander and add to the congressional seats just based on population geography here. So, in essence you have an impact whether you vote or not.

 

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Surely you know better than this. One of the biggest lessons of the internet boom and subsequent bust is that most people who are trained in IT are worthless as productive employees. Sure, they can pass the certification exams. Some even manage to get bachelors degrees from regionally accredited universities. But when it comes time to do actual work, they're worthless.

We do need IT workers. And we need more every day. For the most part, these will come from people with non-IT skillsets picking up IT skills in a very organic fashion. It will be the economist who learns SAS programming as part of their job and decides they like programming more than economics. It will be the church music director who runs the church netowrk and decides they like it (and have an aptitude for it). It won't be the people who take the 10 week (or 2 year) course in IT.

But if we still have a shortage after hiring the non-IT folks with a real aptitude for IT, we either bring in foreigners or we offshore. Personally, I prefer bringing in skilled workers, because for the most part, they will stay here and contribute to our country if given the chance. A job in India is of absolutely no value to me, but someone from India working here is a benefit to me, even if they are directly competing against me for jobs.

 

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So, then you are employed in IT? You are not over 40 yet?

The church music director inserting web page content is likely not reading and writing data from an Oracle or SQL Server database in a .NET environment, developing an app in C#, and likely will know little about web services.

I might buy the economist or statistician, or even accountant doing statistics with SAS but not much toward the church programmer. That's how I got my start in doing programming. I went from engineering to finance in the Air Force and ended up writing a lot of my own code to get the data I needed for my reports.

Well, you must have worked with a lot of top notch programming geek foreigners to make such comments. For me, I have worked with MANY H-1's, L-1's, and J-1's, and I think, especially the TCS people, aren't worth spit. Some are good and know their stuff but I have seen an awful number who haven't a clue. Better off helping our own by training the Houston and New Orleans people currently without jobs. It couldn't be any worse.

Take this genius that I went to see last week at one of our sites. She comes to us from a contracting deal. She's newly minted from India. She is suppposed to be a VB programmer. She did not know how to copy a file from the network down to her desktop. Hmm. Yes. We need more of these foreigners.

 

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So we're just as incompetent identifying H1-B talent as we are hiring home-grown talent. That's not a complete shock. How does this change the fact that we need someone to copy that file from the the network to the desktop and we can't find anyone to do it? I know you are the biggest H1-B opponent on this board, but what I have trouble understanding is what you think the alternative is. If we manage to seal our borders and completely kill the H1-B program, what will really happen? $100K salaries for everyone with a CS degree? Seriously, I would like to hear what your vision is, because so far you have have clearly stated your opposition to H1-Bs, but as far as I can tell ahve not clearly stated what you think will happen if we cut them off.

By the way, what's with the "Take this genius" comment? I think I have been pretty civil. If I haven't, I apologize and will try to moderate my posts better.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stealth H-1b increase for IT

The genius comment was not to you. It was "for instance, take this genius i went to see last week". Sorry for the confusion.

So your only way to fix things is to bring in more foreign visas? That's a fix?

My vision? I want an equal footing. I want H-1b's and other visa holders to have to get the same wages as the prevailing wages made by Americans. This will level the playing field. They don't. I have preiously shown that from the DOL's own web site. They are cheap labor and that overrides most anything else. I want the government to start being honest. Take for instance those 50,000+ jobs that the DOL has, through LCA's(the August incident which seems to be leading to a lawsuit against the DOL). Why won't they post them so that Americans can have a chance to apply for those jobs? They won't even say who has applied for the LCAs. It should be public record. How about these things for a start, Jeff?

Remember, a new CEO or CIO has to show FAST turnaround. How do you do that? You cut expenses, headcount, and hire in cheap to get it done. It won't show up for a while if you hire the wrong people in. By then, you might be onto the next assignment.

Now, can you answer if you are working in IT and under 40? Why do I ask? The world looks different for 30 somethings than 40 or 50 somethings. You don't have to answer but I am interested.

 

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That's ALREADY IN THE LAW. Know your damned stuff, man. Sure, sure, companies DO find loopholes, but the actual, clearly written, requirements for a H1B worker are (1) a bachelor's degree "relevant to the position" and (2) working full time for the company sponsoring the visa for the PREVAILING WAGE. H1B workers ain't that cheap a labor.

LCA positions are, by the freakin' definition, advertised for a specified periods of time. And companies are REQUIRED to hire an American over foreign worker. The only exception are college instructors - they can be hired even when a qualified American applied, if foreigner's qualifications are better.

 

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So you didn't work with any clueless americans? That's weird. There seem to be a couple of totally clueless people on every software team, ant that has nothing to do with nationality. In fact, both of the professors I work for now (as a grader) ae Indians, and both are among the brightest in the department. I've heard horror stories about Indian programmers, but that's just a function of their sheer numbers and distinctiveness.

BTW, I forgot to mention: H1B workers certainly don't pay for their visas (let alone "purchase" them. To call a long four-stage process "purchase"...). Employers do. And they also wait for months while DOL then DHS then the consulate process all the nesessary papers. Few companies are willing to do so. Educate yourself: do a search on monster.com for "visa sponsorship".

 

...and they pay taxes. Including Social Security - those who'll return home will never see that money back. And they're deffinitely paid more than outsorcing people. NOT such a cheap labor. So maybe H1Bs even help preserve wages that would othervise suffer much more because of outsorcing.

 

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Dude, it may be the law to not kill someone but it happens, eh.

You don't hire then Stanislav if you think H1 is not cheaper. Like I said, the DOL already shows that the prevailing wage is NOT being paid. I believe I brought up some examples in California a number of posts ago where the H-1 was in fact getting less than the American counterpart. Why don't you go out to the DOL and do some reasearch. Oh, yeah. It's not worth your time right? But you don't mind not doing your reserach and then coming in to tell others they don't know what they are talking about.

You may not know it but a bachelor's is not necessarily required. It can be waived for "professional" level experience....or in other words any doctored junk that the slaver company can put together will about suffice.

Have you seen what that "advertising" consists of for the LCA? Here is your loophole and it's right in the requirement... "If prior advertisement/recruitment for closely related or similar position, use of prior recruitment is possible -- and recruitment period can be shortened." And the kicker is the advertising can be "unsupervised". Meaning the dialog goes like this..."Did you advertise it? Sure. We did. OK then. Good job."

How about just adversiting that job in a Mexican newspaper? Or, just using your prior adversiting you did for a similar position...the one you advertised for before you laid off half the department. Maybe you just advertise that C++ job via the peronal ads saying, "help wanted apply within"

 

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OK. So, you don't work in an IT organization. You work for professors grading papers. Chances are you just don't have the experience working with enough IT people on projects then. When you start hiring IT people and working with IT teams and are responsible for IT projects let's compare notes.

Sure, I have worked with doofs who are American. However, they are not H-1s. The H-1 program is supposed to bring in the brightest and best to this country. It doesn't. That's the point.

 

First, let's look at the J-1. We haven't talked much on that one here yet but many use the J-1 as a loophole around the H1. It was supposed to be a temporary seasonal visa but turned into an entry level job. J-1's don't pay FICA. That's future money that could be invested here in this country. Had an American been hired into the job the FICA would have been going to the U.S coffer for the future.

The U.S. has totalization agreements with many countries that have their Social Security portion going back to their home country. That's money not staying here. For those countries, an H-1 might pay a tax but not Social Security. Had an American been hired for the job that money would have stayed here to help fund the future retirements of Americans.

In essence, you will have many workers here for 6 years, prior to getting a green card, that don't contribute one dime to Social Security...for 6 whole years. India is not part of the Agreement by the way. HOWEVER, the Immigrants Support Network is actively lobbying Congress, and Hillary(the "Senator from the Punjab") to do an Indian totalization agreement.

 

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CheapER. Not "cheap". AFAIK every H1B gets reasonably good, middle-class Anerican wage... unlike someone providing offshore service from Bangalore (or Kiev, for that matter). No?
What you REALLY want politicians to do? Ban H1B? Ban outsorsing? (How?) The law reads "prevailing wage", just like you want. DOL presumably did the best it could to set the number. (What, you expected the burocracy to do better?) If you see an error in DOL books, be a good citizen and complain.

Yeah. 3 years for every missing year of education. That doesn't happen very often.
(BTW, I bet I know more about H1B than you do. I actually got one. Didn't use it, though.)

I'll tell you a secret. Companies do LCAs for people already working for them. Usually H1Bs. It's lenghthy, expensive process with many hoops to jump, so companies do it for workers they really need. It is only natural companies see LCA advertising requirement as a meaningless hurdle and try to clear it as smoothly as they can. But, nevertheless, all LCA positionsARE advertized. You can set up a volunteer group to monitor obscure local newspapers for such listings and publish them on a website. It's no secret. And again, what do you want from politicians?
Question: are EBGC people also "cheap labor"? How on Earth?!!!