Some KW Ph.D.'s in Government

A K-W Ph.D. on the NSF National Science Board: http://www.nsf.gov/nsb/members/vasquez.htm

A federal Reserve Board member: http://www.ncs.gov/n5_hp/Customer_Service/XAffairs/NewService/2002/2002-050.htm

A K-W paper on Cesium Beam Frequency noted by the Naval Observatory (must be that distinguished KW physics faculty): http://www.usno.navy.mil/library/libsource/PUBS00.HTML

Nebraska Commission for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing: http://www.state.ne.us/home/NCDHH/newsletter_fall2003.html

John

 

..and your point is?

That these individuals are not worthy of their jobs? That no one anywhere, anytime should ever recognize a K-W degree as anything close to valid?

Seems like others, including those doing the hiring, are not always in agreement with this view, although I will confess I would not consider a K-W degree for my own purposes - RA is the only alternative for me, given my field.

However, far from pointing out something "wrong", this analysis actually seems to undermine the extreme positions held by many on this board that any degree that is "unaccredited" or "under-accredited" is worthless and brings a bad name to DL in general.

 

John.

send the names to the respective IG or Congress. In the Federal government the rules are clear if these folks used their degrees to attain the position. However, If they did not use the degree to gain employment nor put it on their application then the rules are different. The Federal government requires that the degree be accredited by a body recognized by the US Dept of ED. Even better, if the government paid for these individuals to attain the degree and it did not meet the established criteria the money can be recouped.

 

Re: ..and your point is?

 

Forgive my ignorance...

Rich,
Forgive my ignorance in this area; I've picked up from this board that you have done a fair amount of research in the area of accreditation, distance learning, etc.

Is it REALLY that bad? K-W U I mean..... I'm wondering how they have managed to get so many people to take their programs, people that seem to be, at least on the surface, rather intelligent and who have reputable undergrad degrees. I've read things about KW out here that have led me to believe it is a diploma mill. Why is this the case? Why do you feel it is so bad?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here - I really honestly do not know, and am willing to be educated as to the ins and outs of KW from your, and possibly other member's perspectives.

Thanks.
- Carl

 

Re: ..and your point is?

The point is to open up a discussion on this topic. With the government tightening up on academic credentials the discussion is even more pertinent to the acceptability of KWU degress. The facts on KWU are plain: not accredited, set up shop in Wyoming to avoid licensure problems, officially not accepted in Oregon, and the list can go on...

As such, is KWU actually giving these folks acccepted doctoral learning? Or is this becoming an easy way out for folks to get a Ph.D.and move ahead in their careers. Some KWU students may come out of the program with real learning but there is no quality control. Thus, even if learning occured the degree has little value. I think the overall value of a KWU credential, if accepted, severely weakens the value of accredited earned doctorates.

John

 

Re: Forgive my ignorance...

Carl:

You don't seem confrontational to me.

Whether or not it is a diploma mill is up to each person. But these are observable facts:

K-WU has changed its mailing address several times in response to state action regarding its legality. California, Idaho (Hawaii?), and now Wyoming. But it has never really ever left California.

K-WU had its approval to award degrees denied in California.

K-WU cannot enroll students in its own state (California).

K-WU doesn't publish its degree requirements.

K-WU has very short time-in-program requirements.

K-WU offers its bachelor's degree for just a few courses and a paper.

K-WU has no external quality review processes.

K-WU doesn't have a process for reviewing doctoral work beyond the student's advisor.

K-WU has been operating without recognized accreditation for two decades. Also, it has never operated in a state that has a real approval process. If Wyoming got tough tomorrow, you'd see K-WU with a Mississippi mailing address by the end of the week.


The list goes on and on. Again, whether this adds up to being a degree mill is up to you.

How do they do it? They sell degrees. Their customers, by definition, are made up of people who (a) think that Wyoming licensure is somehow meaningful academically, or (b) know better, but hope others won't, or (c) just don't care. Couple that with minimal (or less) requirements to earn degrees, an agressive marketing style, a strong, sneaky internet presence, employers who don't know any better, and the gullibility of the marketplace, and you've got the key to financial success. Now, academic success, that's another matter.

 

It looks like Ms. Vasquez got her bachelors and masters degrees in the 1960s. She was an education instructor at Arizona State from 1985 to 1998. She was the first Hispanic president of the National Science Teachers Association (NSTA), serving from 1996 to 1997. She retired in 1999, the same year that she suddenly received her K-W Ph.D.

All in all, this looks like a vanity degree to me.

This guy isn't a Federal Reserve Board member, he's their representative to a federal data security committee. His bio reads:

Pacine's professional career began with Bell Laboratories and AT&T where he also served as a member of the U.S. Army Science Board._ He later worked at the Federal Telecommunications Service of the General Services Administration._ He was the information security officer at the International Monetary Fund prior to joining the Federal Reserve Board in 2001.

He received a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering from the Virginia Military Institute and a Master of Science in Management Information Systems from Central Michigan University._ Dr. Pacine recently completed a doctoral program at Kennedy-Western University of Thousand Oaks, Calif., where he received a Ph.D. in Management Information Systems.

So, once again, this looks like a vanity degree. The guy had his career up and running before receiving his K-W doctorate.

(It's also interesting that K-W's location is given, accurately, as Thousand Oaks Ca., despite K-W's refusal to enroll Californians and Wyoming forwarding address.)

This is a lot more significant. It's the first reference that I've ever seen to real K-W research.

Chadsey, H. (2001). "An Automated Quality Control System for Cesium Beam Frequency Standards," Ph.D. dissertation, Kennedy-Western University.

Chadsey, H., and McCarthy, D. (2001). "Relating Time to the Earth's Variable Rotation," in Proceedings of the 32nd Annual Precise Time and Time Interval (PTTI) Systems and Applications Meeting, held at Reston, Va., 28-30 November 2000, edited by L. A. Breakiron (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Naval Observatory), p. 237.

This seems to be a social worker who has been appointed to a regional field representative position. I'd guess that the doctorate is a vanity degree.

OK, my observations:

Three out of four seem to me to be vanity degrees. They aren't totally ridiculous, since the people do seem to be rather accomplished individuals who hold responsible positions. I wouldn't call these people academic frauds. But did they really earn their doctorates, or did they in effect bestow them on themselves as honorary rewards for service?

All four of these people are boasting of their degrees openly. Apparently the degrees haven't turned into an embarassment.

The data security guy is interesting. This is a person in a very responsible security position. Frankly, I'm troubled that our national security is in the hands of people so clueless that they don't even seem able to detect questionable degrees.

The dissertation and time measurement papers are the most convincing to me. It's the first evidence that I've yet seen that at least some K-W doctoral students are doing research and not just getting "honorary" life-experience degrees. I have no way of judging the quality of Chadsey's dissertation, but his presentation at the scientific meeting suggests that his peers do take his work seriously. Conceivably, something of intellectual value has actually come out of K-W, at least in this one particular instance.

 

Re: Re: Some KW Ph.D.'s in Government

 

We know for a fact that occasionally someone apparently does real work at a degree mill. We have Dr. Hayes here in our own forum as an example. I wonder though, if it's really worth the vanity? I know that if I was at any presentation and the speaker was claiming a PhD from KWU I would probably not be able to resist publicly asking how they managed to earn a bona fide degree from an unaccredited diploma mill that has fled 3 states to avoid being closed down because of problems with their academic legitimacy. I really doubt that would have a positive impact on their vanity. Second thought, maybe it would have a positive impact in the long run!

 

Doing my best to get some answer on the NCS' Dr. Pacine. Historically, the Feds defend placement when the individual does not use the degree to qualify for the position. Most upper positions do not allow for educational substitution for experience. Hence the lack of any concern for the validity of the degree. The issue raised is whether the degree is a part of the application package or merely something placed on a business card. So if, for example, I came into federal service with an accredited undergrad or grad degree I could later get the PHD and not have to worry about whether it is accredited or not as long as I did not use it for qualifying purposes for future growth. Confused yet? to make it more interesting, many positions have a positive education requirement. In these instances a non-accredited degree can land you in a position to face criminal charges. As a rule official transcripts must be provided. What I want to see happen is that if there is a positive education requirement and an entity validates fraudulent transcripts that the Federal Government deals with them. Holler at your public officials for that action and mills will be shorter lived in this country.

Don't blame the government HR folks entirely for bad degree owners. Many HR functions are outsourced to private industry, including the management of the USAJOBS website.

 

Also, committee positions are not always "jobs" in the traditional sense....

They are often unpaid and are are more of a prestige thing. Some debate whether or not the KWU degree would be a violation in that instance.

 

Common Sense Test

If someone intends on doing a quality dissertation project for their PHD, why do it at a non-accredited school which removes any utility from it? I have yet to come up with a valid answer to that question so I must assume that they are either not really intending to do the work or are rather dim as to accreditation issues. I did a google search on Chadsey and was unable to find anything listing the length or quality of his dissertation other than the USNO listing which gave very brief info. That in itself is no review of quality as he could have simply given it to them for filing.

 

Re: Common Sense Test

The only answer to this question that I can think of is that one is basically guaranteed at an unaccredited that if you do the work then a PhD will be bestowed. (Sometimes even if you don't do the work a diploma will be bestowed.) At an accredited institution no such guarantee can be given. For example, it depends on if your research turns up something useful or at least adds to the body of knowledge.

 

A couple of comments on Mr. Chadsey, whose dissertation is listed on the US Naval Observatory website. As near as I can tell, this is just a listing of publications by staff employees. I doubt whether anyone at the observatory actually vetted his dissertation, or even whether there were any standards for listing on the website. Maybe he filled out a form and submitted it to the web guy and, voila, it was listed on the web? We have no way of knowing what kind of quality was displayed in the dissertation (though the title sounds impressive, doesn't it ?)

As for his other paper - it was a joint paper written with another staff member. The editor was another employee of the Observatory.

Who knows, the guy may be a serious scientist, but his dissertation is still questionable.

 

Too hard on unaccredited degree holder

I agree with others that many use the unaccredited doctorate for vanity to increase their status. However these schools present as legal and useful. I have used the Bear's Guides to obtain 3 credentials - a B.S degree from the U. of the State of N.Y, a paralegal certificate from the Blackstone School of Law, and a M.S from Adam Smith University. The B.S and Certificate have served me fine. Adam Smith U. at one time was listed in Bear's Guide to 100 Good Schools and the degree was based mainly on courses taken at accredited schools. Now it is seen as a horrible degree mill and I don't use it. My point is even John Bear can be fooled ! Now don't get me wrong-I respect John Bear, love his books and enjoy this website. His info was based on his info at the time and he changed the impression of the school as new info became available. My point is -don't be too hard on these unaccredited degree holders as even the best of us make mistakes.

 

Re: Too hard on unaccredited degree holder

I don't think many people here would have a problem with anyone in your situation. The people that aggravate me are the people with mill credentials that continue to defend them as legitmate, in the face of much evidence to the contrary.

 

I find it ironic and even a bit funny that institutions of higher learning seek to be recognized by the U.S. Department of Education when the U.S. Government in general is run so poorly in the first place!

I have 4 degrees from RA accredited schools. That and
2 dollars might get me a happy meal!

My apology in advance for sounding so cynical.

Cheers!

 

I have to tell you folks that I found out about the issue of accreditation pretty much by accident by following a link to this board. Had I not been persistent in trying to determine what the heck I was doing, I would have ended up at K-W. There are so many fake agencies that is was hard to tell what was real and what wasn't. But then again, I had only an accredited AAS when I started this so I had little to compare anything to. K-W's information is very very slick and looks very legitimate. That's not to say that the people in this thread shouldn't have known better since they already had higher degrees than I do. Still, my point is that it would be very very easy for a bright person to fall for some of these schools. And there does appear to be acceptance by industry of these K-W degrees, at least by own information package they send out makes it appear so. I'm embarrassed now that I almost went for K-W. If I had, it wouldn't have been to fool anyone, it would have been because I thought it was legit.

 

This is why KWU is so insidious. It makes a person do some real work. It is just generally well below what is normally required for a degree, especially their Bachelor's degree. Do the graduates of KWU have real academic degrees? I'd say no. Are graduates of KWU usually academic frauds? Probably not, they are most likely not trying to deceive others, they have just been deceived themselves.