Some heads need to roll

Okay......

 

I never claimed to be an expert in anything. Just stating my opinion they way you are stating yours. Like I said, what I say or what you say is not really important here. What matters is how the outcome goes for this person in court. This is where things will really be borne out.

Once again, welcome Jamy.

Abner :smile:

 

Oh, but I am a subscriber to the white guilt theory. I was merely suggesting a way for the shooter to get away with it.

 

Learn something new every day. Never heard of "white guilt theory" and thought it was a joke or racial comment I did not get. Then I Googled it and found all kinds of stuff. I'll have to do some reading to see what its all about.

 

Well said and makes me think of this - http://www.uthscsa.edu/gme/documents/Circles.pdf

 

You are correct we are both stating our opinions. Just to clarify.

My opinion is that we should wait until all the evidence is disclosed and the legal process runs its course before we say Zimmerman is a murderer or Martin was the attacker.

Your opinion is damn the legal process, I don't need to see all the evidence because I "know" he's guilty so I'm going to make false statements and verbally assault him. That sounds like vigilante justice to me.


Vigilante - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persons seen as "escaping from the law" or "above the law" are sometimes the targets of vigilantism
In some cases vigilantes may assault targets verbally
Anyone who defies the law to further justice is a vigilante

 

I think he is guilty. That is my opinion thus far. The initial lead investigator thought the was guilty as well. My thinking he is guilty will have no bearing on anything either way. Once again, in the end, both sides will present their evidence, and a jury will make a decision. I don't think I am so important that I have the abilitiy to sway this case. :smile:

I will give you the last word on this if you wish. At this point, I have said what I want to say.

Have a good one!

Abner :smile:

 

Zimmerman killed the kid, that is the one thing we all agree on. Now, whether TM attacked GZ or the other way around is going to be the sticking point. This will be an interesting trial and will probably make the news for a long time. It will be fascinating to watch this play out in the public eye (if it indeed does).

I remember the Omar Thornton case and that one just wrapped up in May of 2011 I believe. Of course that one wasn't on everybodies hot button issue of the moment-since it was the murder of 8 racist white people by a poor oppressed black guy so who really gives a flying crap about that.

Still, the way this thing is playing out seems like a big game played through the media. Somethig negative comes out about GZ then something negative comes out about TM and back and forth we go. These "leaks" appear to be nothing more than political and social strategy played by opponents in a game to garner public sympathy to their side.

 

I found this on Wikipedia. He was not oppressed, he was a thief!

Thornton, a 34-year-old black man, was called into his place of employment for disciplinary purposes. Thornton had been recorded on surveillance video in the Hartford Distributors warehouse stealing beer on a previous occasion. Hartford Distributors is a wholesale distributor of Budweiser beer products and wine. Given the options of being fired or resigning, Thornton signed the resignation papers and was being escorted out of the building. Instead of leaving, he took two Ruger SR9s from his lunchbox and opened fire.... As more police entered the building, Thornton called his mother and explained to her what he had done. He told her he planned on turning the gun on himself. As police closed in, Thornton called 911, saying his motive for the massacre was racism he had experienced in the workplace. He told the 911 operator that he wished he had killed more people.[11][12] Soon after hanging up on 911, he killed himself with a shot to the head.

 

Wow! Holy crap they actually had some sort of investigation into his accounts of racism and found no evidence. The dead were essentially on trial because their killer said the secret code word. Impressive.

Only in America. How many marches were there protesting this killing? Did Anyone start a thread asking for heads to roll? Did the President say if he had a son Omar is what he would look like.

Circuses, people...circuses.

 

Another thing that all should agree on is that Zimmerman pursued the kid, even after being warned by the police not to do so.
Doesn't the kid have the right to defend himself if he feels that he is threatened by Zimmerman?
If the kid did punch Zimmerman, wouldn't the kid be justified in doing so if if HE felt threatened?

 

Actually no. First, it was a dispatcher, not a sworn officer. Second it was on the phone, not in person. Third, by Zimmerman's account he broke off of following Martin after told not to do so and fourth Martin had the legal right to be where he was, Zimmerman also had a legal right to be where he was. By legal standards...it's a wash even if Martin was being followed by Zimmerman.

Unless Zimmerman assaulted Martin he would not have the right to punch Zimmerman. The threat has to be able to be articulated, meaning you knew exactly what he was going to do (he was about to hit me with a bat, or stab me with a knife or shoot me with a gun, etc.) AND the threat has to be imminent (happening right now without delay, without a doubt, the attack is occuring or immediately forthcoming). A general sensation of feeling threatened is not defensible by law, otherwise if you say...had a woman walking in a parking garage alone at night saw a stranger walking in the same garage she would be legally justified in shooting him if he made her nervous. Believe it or not there is a criteria that must be met to claim self defense and in the case of deadly force the third criteria is...the victim must believe that they or someone else is in danger of serious bodily injury or death. Meaning a 4 year old slapping you in the knee is not enough.

So let's review...to use deadly force you have to have...

1.) The attack must be specific...one you can articulate.
2.) The attack must imminent or in progress.
3.) The attack must be capable of causing serious bodily harm or death to yourself or another.

If Zimmerman pointed the gun at Treyvon and Treyvon attacked him, then Treyvon is justified (if not dumb). If Zimmerman's account is true and Treyvon attacked him, Zimmerman is justified (if not dumb).

 

Was GZ talking to the police or to a 911 operator? The latter has no LE authority and you would not have to listen to them anymore than you would have to listen to a stranger. Either way, I thought I read on MSNBC that they said GZ lost TM and was headed back to his car? I'll see if I can find that tidbit.

Yes you can defend yourself if you are threatened. Is that what TM did? FELT threatened and physically attacked GZ?

I'm not sure you are allowed to physically hit someone based on how you feel. I'm not a LE officer so I'm not sure how that would go down.

My interest in the case is only in how the prestige press has presented the case to us. It was spun one way: "Racist white bigot tracks down and kills helpless 13 year old black child - KKK and racism is on every corner!!!!!

Matt Gutman implies that he sat "ashen faced" and listened to the phone call between TM and TM's girlfriend. There is no recording of the call. What Matt Gutman heard was the girlfriend telling her side of the story and relating through a lawyer to Gutman and TM's parents what she thinks happened. Completey different and a very obvious ploy to make the story appear one way.

Now you have everyone who rides the latest social trend talking about "hoodies" and making some sort of sick twisted fashion statement implying that TM was killed because he was wearing a hoodie. How do we know he was killed for wearing the hoodie and not for carrying Skittles or Tea?

Wheres the interview with the 7/11 clerk (and video) of TM buying his candy?
How many witnesses are there and what are they saying?
If this was cold blodded murder, then why would GZ call the police? How malicous could his intent been if he's chatting up John Flatfoot on the horn while stalking his prey? Cold blodded murders don't call the Cops right before they commit their crimes.

The media is pushing an agenda, and I am not buying it for a minute.

 

No we should not all agree on that. Where's your evidence? Did you listen to the 911 calls? When police told Zimmerman to stop following Martin he said ok. Zimmerman said he lost Martin. Then he started talking with the police about meeting them back at his truck. He no longer sounded winded. I don't think there has been any evidence or comments by the police whether or not Zimmerman continued to follow Martin. See my earlier post with links to the 911 calls then listen to them.

Have you heard the statements from Martin's girlfriend? The girlfriend said she heard Martin ask Zimmerman "Why are you following me?" Next the girlfriend said she heard Zimmerman ask Martin "What are you doing around here?" How are either of these statements threatening? Isn't that the question a neighborhood watch person should ask? Since Martin initiated the conversation isn't it likely that Martin confronted Zimmerman as Zimmerman has stated? I find it highly suspect that the girlfriend did not hear any other statements from Martin or Zimmerman until she starts hearing the altercation. Are you telling me those are the only two statements that caused a fight?

Trayvon Martin's girlfriend details final moments before the Miami teen was slain in Orlando

If Zimmerman felt threatened and someone punched him doesn't he have the right to defend himself?

 

Here is a CNN video story about a possible racial slur Zimmerman used. They enhanced the 911 call.

To me it sounds like "f---ing punks" before they enhance it, but after they enhance it it does sound like the racial slur in question. I am not an audio expert and I don't know if what CNN did to the audio to enhance it. So this doesn't prove anything yet. When this gets to court though, I'm sure we will have a lot more experts enhancing this tape.

It's interesting that both CNN people in the video say it sounds like he used a racial slur but they couldn't swear to it in court and that only George Zimmerman knows if he used the slur.

George Zimmerman racial slur technically analyzed - YouTube

 

Sounds like what you want it to sound like. I hear effing punks. Other hear a racial slur. My default position is to not assume every hispanic person I meet hates black people, but I understand that other people think that way.

How many times in the past has GZ (Married family man) called 911?
How many times in the past has GZ used a racial slur to describe someone?
Is there anything from TM past that we can learn that may shed light on how he possibly acted that night?

 

Amazing .... now CNN is saying it doesn't sound like Zimmerman used a racial slur. This is why I have been saying to Abner and others who are rushing to judgement that we need to wait until we can see the "real" evidence.

CNN Enhances Zimmerman 911 Call Again — And Reporter Now Doubts Racial Slur Used

“Now it does sound less like that racial slur. … From listening in this room, and this is a state-of-the-art room, it doesn’t sound like that slur anymore. It sounds like … we‘re hearing the swear word at first and then the word ’cold.’ And the reason some say that would be relevant, is because it was unseasonably cold in Florida that night and raining.”

The audio expert agreed it sounded like “cold,” and said the new method gets rid of a lot more background noise but doesn’t change the voice or words.

 

FYI - Zimmerman had a white father and a Hispanic mother. Guess that makes him a "white Hispanic."