Schumer's speech

Eeeeeep; hard disagree. There are many forms of genocide. Like, for example, kidnapping children and raising them as another identity - you know, what putin is officially charged with. I say we stick with definitions from a UN Convention.

 

Add-on: It's not genocide unless a lot of people die. Moving people en masse can be called genocide if many die as a result. That's happened in US history with Native Americans - the "Trail of Tears," etc.
Both of our countries, Canada and US have practised genocide in the past on Native populations with the aid of smallpox.

 

As you wish. Heaven forbid I should contradict a UN document. I'm just a humble Latin student. Mea maxima culpa!

 

Instead of "true" meaning I think you might mean original meaning. That Wiki definition explicitly mentioned that it was a legal definition. Which is the same definition given in the link to the article I provided. Lerner's argument about there is not such a thing as a Palestinian people because there is no country called Palestine, seems like a weak argument to me. The Palestinians themselves and the other Arab countries seem to recognize the distinction and difference.

quote:
Article II of the Genocide Convention defines genocide as “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-limits-of-accusing-israel-of-genocide-under-international-law

 

Right. there isn't. There was, when I first went to school in England, in 1948. Our teacher told us that Palestine was where Jesus lived, long ago. I guess later that year, it all changed, but we five-year-olds in Miss Sweeney's class weren't notified, at the time. Under the British Mandate (1920-1948) the whole region was known as Palestine.

But yes - the name Israel goes way back. It's used on the Merneptah Stele, 13th C. BCE., discovered at Thebes and now housed in the Cairo museum.

 

Yes. I looked at the word and the original meaning (Latin source) was very clear. Tampering, I think. But OK - sanctioned tampering.

I don't like it, on linguistic grounds, but I have to accept it. Whatever you call it, I doubt if Putin will ever be fried --- I mean tried, for it. But he should be. Both. Me go read Latin book now. Dominus vobiscum.

 

LOL

We can HOPE!

 

Well, due largely to Arab intransigence, the Green Line isn't a recognized international boundary line either.

 

Ho boy.
I must say, from a very shallow understanding I can really see both sides' points there. Arab and Israel, that is, not the ones who feel their cause justifies genocide - like Hamas and, possibly, also Netanyahu.

 

Netanyahu as a leader gave in to pressure from Washington to sign further deals with Palestinian leaders, which ultimately led to the collapse of his first right-wing government.
In 2009 Netanyahu expressed qualified support for an independent Palestinian state, with the condition that it would have to be demilitarized and formally recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
Palestinian leaders rejected those terms and on Netanyahu's watch, Israel's presence continued to grow in the West Bank. He never called for genocide, but because he is right wing the left wing
be it in Israel or US see political opponent and play hard ball to hurt him. He is not without controversy and mistakes, and all these investigations and trials yet to make a judgement.
But Oct 7th was under his watch, just like 1973 war under Golda's.

 

I have no reason to think Netanyahu himself favors destroying the Palestinian Arab communities but neither have I any reason to think he opposes doing so. Like Trump, Netanyahu's stole concern is whether something is good or bad for Bibi Netanyahu. Right now, Netanyahu has to remain as Prime Minister or face long delayed criminal prosecutions. He can hang on only so long as the Zionist Settler parties support him. Those people DO want to destroy Palestinian communities and sieze the land. They've been doing so for decades.

 

This seems to be making the same argument being made by the Israelis talked to in this piece. Basically, that is that Hamas was horrible on October 7 and so Israelis are therefore allowed to be horrible to the people of Gaza.

'That sounds like ethnic cleansing': CNN questions lead figure in Israel's settler movement
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

 

There may be some rough justice in that idea but it's un-Jewish. Judaism teaches a well defined concept of proportionality. Christians seem to misread "An eye for an eye". That principle does not stand for making the world blind. Rather, it means that damages need to be proportionate to the harm done. "An eye for an eye" instead of "A life for an eye." Right now, Israel seems bent on "Annihilation for a thousand murders." But the real reason is to eliminate the Gaza community altogether and seize the land I think.

Americans, of all people, should recognize the symptoms.

 

While in general I agree with your view of eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth, I understand those were as community laws, not war related laws.
War laws are many times laws of Herem, (examples are:
Following the battle, G‑d commanded Moses to record the story of Amalek’s treacherous attack for posterity, and to enjoin Moses’ future successor, Joshua, to remember the attack as well. G‑d promised to completely wipe out the memory of Amalek from the earth, and to wage an eternal war with Amalek in every generation.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and attack the Amalekites and devote to destruction all that belongs to them. Do not spare them.)
I'm far from being a scholar on Jewish law, but it's interesting that a Purim Festival starts in a few days.
Where the enemy evil Haman (a descendant of Amalekite King) that planned to kill all the Jews in all 127 states/provinces of Persian Empire.
The Book of Esther tells us that Haman was a descendant of Amalek, a nation known for its hatred of the Jewish people. King Saul, ancestor of Esther and Mordechai( Ben Jamite), failed to follow G‑d’s command to get rid of the Amalekite king Agag, and the events of Purim can thus be seen as a “rematch” for this centuries-old feud.

War in Gaza is with Terrorist Armies that attacked Israel and pose danger to Israels existence.
In a war there are goals of enemy destruction, Israeli people want safety, no more rockets and terror attacks, and Hamas needs to be defeated.
As to proportions, there are 500,000 million Arabs which Palestinian Arabs part of surrounding 9 million Israelis, so is it equal measure? Nobody wants the civilians to suffer, but Hamas, they could have ended this long time ago, by releasing hostages and capitulating.
War in the North of Israel is escalating, cities are evacuated, Jewish and Arab civilians are displaced, forced to flee the escalating war on Lebanon border.

 

Absolutely true. The CNN article states that only 51% of Israelis that voted for the ruling government believe that establishing Israeli settlements in Gaza is a good idea. and only 23% (or maybe it was 24%?) of all Israelis hold that view.

On a different subject touched on in this thread. The number of 31,000 Palestinian deaths has been questioned in this thread. This number is being provided to us by an arm of Hamas. Which should raise some skepticism. This number is apparently as accurate as can be expected though. Here's an article from over a month ago when we were at 30,000 deaths that analyzes the number and its accuracy or lack thereof. 17,000 of those were explicit body counts with names mostly taken from hospitals. 13,000 were best estimates for bodies under the rubble etc.

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war

I've been skeptical of this number due to the source from the beginning of the war. However, the anecdotal examples have seemed to be in the ballpark though. For example, I read one article about UN associates in Gaza killed versus total UN associates in Gaza and the percentages seemed to be in the same range as the percentages of total deaths versus total Gaza population. I don't think that it's reasonable to totally reject and ignore this number just because of the source.

 

Not that this is the only thing wrong here, but why would Hamas do that? The war goes great for them; more civilian deaths do wonders for recruitment and fundraising. You're not suggesting they CARE about population, Jewish OR Palestinian, now do you? They are terrorists, creating terror is what they do.

(also, the entity responsible for IDF's conduct is IDF. And Netanyahu.)

 

funny how this thread is more interesting than my link on how Trump is literally Hitler.

 

Sticky and lacking nutritional value?