ROLL CALL: Military students post here!

You would not believe how drastically things have changed. I am finding it hard to believe myself. What you just described would never happen now. Not between members of the officer and NCO Corps. There now appears to be some sort of unspoken agreement to stay out of each other's business. The officers deal with each other and their problems and the NCOs do the same through the chain of command and/or the NCO support channel. Of course I cannot speak totally from experience having just returned to active duty so I am basically going by what I have been exposed to and taught in the last year or so on active duty and the last 11 years in the National Guard and Army Reserve -and that is that an officer will only be directly involved in punishments administered to NCOs when the UCMJ is involved in which case it would be an officer with general courts martial authority. Negative bullets on NCOERs must be fully justified, i.e., written counselings leading up to the negative...but even though I have been back for only a short period of time, I still have the prior 12 years of active duty service to go on and that sort of thing simply was not happening then. Then, too, it may have been that I was fortunate enough to have not been exposed to that sort of thing during those years (1978-1990) and of course I wasn't everywhere at once so who knows.

 

I can only speak for the Army, but any Captain (O-3) who expects a First Sergeant (E-8) to empty garbage and buff floors would have zero respect or credibility among the enlisted men.

A First Sergeant is the top enlisted man at company level (hence the universal nickname "Top"), and was always looked at with awe & respect by the enlisted men in my unit. To see him ordered to do menial tasks would have pissed us off, big time.

It seems this particular O-3 is more concerned with his ego than the morale of those under his command. He'll probably go far.


Bruce

 

Whoops. I failed to make something very clear. I think any officer who demeans an NCO by routinely tasking him or her with things below that person's rank and ability is wrong. I'd empty my own trash long before I'd let any of my NCO's do it. I'm not supporting this officer's behavior. Rather, I object to some of the responses to it, for they're not only unworthy of NCO's (and, I hope, not reflective of the NCO corps as a whole), but such actions would serve to undermine the NCO's further.

I always made it a habit to drive my own car, clean my own office, answer my own phones, type my own letters, etc. But my subordinates were not given the option of chosing which of my orders to carry out. (But they were almost always given an opportunity to object and, often, to correct me before I made a mistake. )

 

In the case I mentioned the E-8 was a MSG not a 1SG. The 0-3 just made a comment that it was the E-8's job to buff officers floors and empty their garbage (ie he did not supervise the E-8 directly). The 0-3 was a Chaplain. Believe it or not he was a great boss. He just had certain ideas. For example he complained his neighborhood overseas went downhill when senior enlisted moved in (apparently the senior NCO kids had the neighbours uspet requiring meetings with the local community). He also felt there was a division of labor (ie the natural scheme of things was for a Lt. to be above a SGM). I think he repected what enlisted people did and what Senior NCO's did but saw them as lower level Mgt.

North

 

I should also have mentioned that I would never support someone who willfully disobeyed a lawful order, no matter how outrageous it was. Obey the order, and then deal with it later.

There are ways to deal with this sort of thing. When I was active Army, I was in division recon, where almost everyone who went into the field on missions was enlisted (the highest ranking person on team was usually an E-5 or sometimes E-6). But, whenever a new officer came to the unit, we had to take them out on missions to orient them to the unit's way of operating. It was made clear that these officers were observers only, and were just along for the ride. However, we had one brand-new 2nd Lieutenant (a West Point ring-banger, no less) who didn't see things that way. No sooner were we inserted and the helicopter leaving, this guy pulled rank and took over. He wouldn't listen to any of us, which resulted in us going completely off-course and failing the mission objectives. He also issued a bunch of orders that, if we were in real combat, would surely have gotten all of us killed.

After we got back, our Team Leader talked to the First Sergeant about what happened, the Top went to the Company Commander, and Lieutenant Greensleeves was reminded in no uncertain terms what the deal was. On subsequent missions he did nothing but give us all hard looks.


Bruce

 

Well, that explains a lot. At the risk of offending the pastors among us (and I apoligize in advance if I do), we never considered chaplains (or physicians, lawyers, or nurses) "real" military officers, more like civilian contractors who wear the uniform. I wouldn't expect any of them to understand how important and valuable a good Senior NCO is.

I only saw a chaplain issue an order once. I was in Basic Training at Fort Benning in 1983, and a bunch of us decided to go to the Protestant church service on Sunday. As we all know, recruits in Basic can't blow their nose without the approval of a Drill Sergeant, so we had one march us down to the chapel. As we were filing into the chapel, someone screwed up (I forget what it was). The Drill Sergeant immediately dropped us for push-ups, right in the foyer of the chapel. The chaplain, who was just arriving for the service, went ballistic and ordered the Drill Sergeant to cease & desist. The chaplain was really mad, I remember him yelling about desecrating the House of God, or something like that. The only problem was that we got it twice as bad after we left the chapel and got back to the company area.


Bruce

 

Another consideration: due to their position as religious leaders, chaplains cannot be in command of a unit (other than ministry) in the Army. They can't even be appointed as an area coordinator for a housing area. This is to protect them from having to make very tough decisions. Do you think it would be wise to have a chaplain in command of an infantry company in conflict? Imagine requiring him to order someone to take a hill, knowing they may not come back.

 

This, too, is unfortunate. While some non-line officers do not live up to their responsibilities as officers, it is not productive to assume this of each one. Many of them are in command and/or supervisory positions, responsible for the performance of NCOs and enlisted personnel. My wife served almost 10 years in the Air Force Nurse Corps. She ran, over time, an OB unit, Same-Day Surgery, and Recovery Room. In each role, she supervised nurses, technicians, and administrative personnel. She scheduled, conducted performance appraisals, etc., just like any other military supervisor. As a combat nurse, she also supervised field hospital activities, and served a tour in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

As the Commandant of Cadets at an AFROTC detachment, I had several cadets who were in nursing programs. Their four years of military training resulted in the same commission as the rest of my students' training did. And when they entered active duty, they went to work for officers with all kinds of training backgrounds, including those directly commissioned into the Nurse or Medical Corps. No difference.

Some people bristle at the imposition of authority, and look for reasons to undermine it. Maybe it makes them feel more comfortable about their station in life. I always found it more productive to emulate the good ones than dwell on the bad ones. And it never helped to stereotype any group of officers.

 

I don't know if that was directed at me Rich, but considering I spent 9 years in the military and 14 so far in a paramilitary organization (police department), without ever once being so much as spoken to about having an attitude, I think I can safely say that I have no problem with authority.

The attitude I described exists in every Infantry unit, we always considered ourselves the Army, and everyone else was our support team. I don't expect anyone else to understand it, but it did foster an esprit de corps that I have yet to see matched anywhere.


Bruce

 

Certainly not, and not at anyone here or in particular. But I have worked for this type of person. I once worked for a SSgt named "Dave." Dave was a SSgt for a very long time. (About 10 years, IIRC.) Well, one day we got assigned to us a 2Lt with prior service. We didn't have an OIC slot, but they needed a place for him, so we got him. Dave did everything he could to undermine the lieutenant, including calling him "Bob" in front of others, including me. Dave just couldn't get over having this guy assigned over him, and wasn't about to show this officer any respect. (Previously, Dave ran the shop; we worked for a civilian supervisor.) It was petty and mean, and only served to hurt the unit's cohesion and customer service. I think Dave would have been more comfortable with a non-prior service officer he could patronize and push around. Also, Dave had recently finished his degree, but couldn't get accepted to Officer Training School. Dave was reassigned before I was selected for OTS.

It's like the times I hear enlisted people talk about how they could've gotten commissioned, and then rationalize why they didn't. I'd much rather hear that they didn't get accepted, or didn't want it, or--better yet--nothing at all. Now, I wish I could've gone farther in my miltary career, but I'm proud and happy with what I accomplished. When I had to drop my Union program, I didn't talk about it to anyone for a long time, nor did I even think I could return. I didn't want to go through all the rationalizing about why I quit. And when I did mention it on a.e.d., Steve absolutely skewered me. Darn it, he was right about that, too, because instead of rationalizing it, I should have been working on getting back in.

I apologize if I made it seem I was directing my comment at anyone; I was responding to the hypothetical situation raised.

BTW, I attend my colloquium next month. My committee is (almost) assembled, and my core faculty member likes my PDE (dissertation) topic.

 

It looks like I'll lose the "(P)" on the first of June, at which time I will be promoted to Sergeant First Class (E-7)!

The very next day (2 June), I get my diploma from Charter Oak State (B.S. Individualized Studies). Well, at least the good people at COSC will mail the diploma to me on the second. I won't be able to walk across the stage to collect it myself, as I have to work that weekend. The Army is making me earn that additional pay already

Tracy<><

 

While I was never in the Infantry (I was in the MPs), I have fond memories of Infantry OCS. I learned a lot about Infantry combat tactics and learned how difficult combat can be.

In one training scenario at midnight, after we were intentionally sleep-deprived for 72 hours, I was leading a platoon through the woods when the instructors ambushed us. We were blinded by several flash-bang gernades. The white light, concussion and noise is phenominal. Commanding green troops is almost impossible when nobody can see you or hear you (and I was also temporarily blinded and deafened). And the TAC officers were screaming, "Take command! What are you going to do!?!? ect..." It was rough...

A civilian will never understand it until they experience it. TV makes combat-stress look so easy.

 

And congradulation Tracy!

 

Sergeant First Class

Tracy,

Congratulations!

 

It looks like I'll lose the "(P)" on the first of June, at which time I will be promoted to Sergeant First Class (E-7)!

The very next day (2 June), I get my diploma from Charter Oak State (B.S. Individualized Studies). Well, at least the good people at COSC will mail the diploma to me on the second. I won't be able to walk across the stage to collect it myself, as I have to work that weekend. The Army is making me earn that additional pay already

Tracy<><It looks like I'll lose the "(P)" on the first of June, at which time I will be promoted to Sergeant First Class (E-7)!


Congratulations Tracy, on your promotion and on your graduation. Good Luck!

 

Congratulations Tracy!! Pretty soon you'll find yourself staring at the diploma when no one else is around, feeling justifiably proud of a wonderful accomplishment.

I only made it to Corporal (E-4) in the active Army, then Staff Sergeant (E-6) in the National Guard. As you're no doubt aware, the jump from Staff to First Class in the Army is one of the tougher promotions.

Any plans for graduate school?


Bruce

 

Bruce,

I am enrolled in Touro University International's online MBA program. I will finish my first term on the 31st of May.


Tracy<><

 

Happy Birthday!

Just a short, and slightly late, note to wish a hua-hua birthday to my Army brethren. Happy 227th!

BTW, while you're out on the prade ground doing birthday push-ups, spare a moment to salute the flag; its her birthday too!


Cordially,
SrA Kanarek
USAFR

 

Re: Happy Birthday!

Thanks, SrA Kanarek.

I noticed that your Mayor, Michael Bloomberg, declared June 14th as "Army Appreciation Day" in New York City.

In other observances, Hadley Boyd, a seven-year-old elementary school student from Columbus. GA, was made an honorary Private First Class for his role in creating a large American flag that flew over the Pentagon during birthday ceremonies there. And, as if to confirm that certain people associated with the military have achieved celebrity status over the past few years (Colin Powell, Norman Schwartzkopf, and Donald Rumsfeld come to mind), Secretary of the Army, Thomas White was pictured signing autographs in the courtyard of the Pentagon during those observances.

See these links for Army Birthday messages from the President, and from the Secretary of the Army, the Army Chief of Staff, and the Sergeant Major of the Army.

In honor of Flag Day, see this link:

http://www.dtic.mil/soldiers/jun2002/pdfs/flagposter.pdf



Tracy Gies
SFC, USA

 

Air Force Institute Of Technology (AFIT) is opening it's doors to SNCOs in FY03. They offer Master's and Doctorate level management and scientific programs.

Not much info right now except we'll have the same admission requirements as officers (that's a good thing-don't need no affirmative action...) and not sure if we we be allowed to take full-time student status except for Bootstrap which, by the way, totally sucks as of a few months ago.

This is gonna be a good deal however it works out. Check it out at http://www.afit.edu/