Pug, Jimmy, Or? on Golden State School of Theology

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Bill Grover, May 7, 2004.

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  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Bruce closed the second thread also in which GSST played in the discussion. In that second thread Pug said that he, who is doing a BA (?) at Briercrest is helping Dr Graves, who has been in higher Christian ed at least since 1979 and who has three (?) doctorates , improve the quality of GSST. In that second thread Pug affirms that GSST is not a mill by any standards. Levicoff might disagree , Pug--I don't know. I don't think it is, but I'm interested in your , and anyone's, response to these questions.

    I should preface these questions with this statement. I don't make this statement ingenuously just to avoid having this thread too closed. I make from my heart: I am glad that Pug is helping out Dr Graves improve his (Graves') program. I don't think GSST is bad just because it is unaccredited. But I think its quality could be measurable!

    I don't mean to impugn anyone's character in general who is connected with GSST . I say "in general" because there is lurking in the back of my mind that it is just plain wrong to do Theology at the doc level without serious rigor and I'm not convinced at all of the GSST rigor at the doctoral level. I admit that and hope it is not cause for this thread to be closed!!!

    And I further suspect that my own moral character is no higher than anyone's connected with GSST. I have no reason to say that anyone connected with GSST is a bad person.

    I'm trying to look at this objectively, dispassionately, and academically. I do this because I'm interested too, like Pug and Dr Graves, in improving the quality of Christian higher education. I also am not so concerned with practical, ministerial studies as I think that experience, not just accredited degrees, might qualify one to teach such. So, regarding GSST's academic quality:


    1) Would you say that none of the GSST faculty has grad degrees which were achieved with slender effort? I think this question very much relates to the quality of the GSST grad programs. Why would it be expected that those who have not experienced a rigorous doc program themselves could teach a rigorous doc course of studies? I'm interested in how Graves got a Phd AND a ThD in two years. Perhaps I'll email him ; or, did I once do that?

    2) Would you say that even 1/2 of the GSST faculty is qualified by TRACS standards [ re faculty qualifications ] to teach any graduate courses? But if not, then would you say the TRACS standards which purport to preserve the quality of grad theological education are wrong?

    3) Would you say that GSST administrators did not misrepresent to Jimmy and to Barry the associations, which associations could be interpreted as a sign of quality, the school was carrying on with DETC? It seems to me that there is strong evidence that misrepresentation was in fact done.

    4) Would you say that the GSST dissertation discussed here is at genuine doctoral level? Would you say that it is a good example of what doctoral dissertations should be?

    5) Would you say that it is academically sound for GSST to offer a Doctor of Theology degree when none of its faculty has an accredited PhD/ThD in Bible or in Theology?

    6) Why is it, IYO, that no one at GSST has an accredited PhD/ThD, or even an RA/ATS ThM (?) , in Bible/Theology? What, if anything, might this suggest to you about the general rigor the GSST teaching faculty have chosen to employ in earning their advanced qualifications ? Or do you see no relationship between accreditation and rigor in a doctoral program?

    7 Would you say that grads of a GSST masters program have a good probabilty of being accepted into an accredited doctorate? GSST has operated for 25 years. Do you know of say, just three persons , GSST grads, who were admitted to RA PhD/ThD programs in Bible/Theology on the strength of the GSST masters and who finished those degrees? Perhaps Dr Graves could provide that list of names?

    I hope nothing I've just said is grounds for this thread too to be closed!
     
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  2. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Is GSST CA-approved, or do they have a religious exemption?
     
  3. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    In looking at the GSST site ,where accreditation is discussed, no mentioned of "approval" by Ca is made.

    It would seem fair that GSST should be measured in part by the claims it makes. GSST on its website says its faculty is "highly qualified" ; that is why in my first post I dwell on the many, many unaccredited degrees of the faculty. GSST also says that since 1979 the goal of GSST has been to provide the" highest quality" of Christian education. As I said above, IMO, when providing ministerial training it may not be as vital thatr the faculty have accredited docs, but when providing grad work in the academic study of Theology or Bible , then, I think accredited doc degrees become more important. Accreditors, as TRACS, I think, also espouse that position! So, when a school offers a ThD, then IMO, that program generally requires instructors who have accredited academic docs in the relevant subjects. But the GSST faculty list, it appears to me, mentions not one accredited PhD/ThD in Bible or in *Theology! Calif may "exempt" GSST, but does this exemption mean that normal professorial qualifixcations should not be correlate to the high quality of instruction which GSST claims for itself?




    By Theology I mean Systematic or Historical Theology, not ministry.
     
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  4. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Golden State School of Theology is not an approved school; it operates in California under a religious exemption.
     
  5. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Well, here we all are again. I brought the tuica. Who's got the sausages?:)

    But seriously, folks, I'm glad that the discussion of GSST can continue. My initial question to another poster remains on the table: the faculty at GSST were using ACCS as a route to get a NA DMin degree (fairly easy, IMO as a former student in that very program). Bill has stated elsewhere his reservations about using the "practical" DMin as the qualifying degree to teach the academic subjects in a seminary. Probably I am not quite as strict as Bill on this point. Still: What does ACCS' loss of accreditation do to "improvement" plans at GSST?

    The low quality of GSST has been shown pretty conclusively on older threads with that godawful dissertation being the frog in the salad.

    I appreciate that Pugbelly is serving as an advocate for a new improved GSST. Notice--advocate, not a shill--as he is quite straightforward about what he hopes to accomplish. I hope he is successful. A "character" issue has been raised in which either Dr Graves or another poster comes off fairly badly. Perhaps Pugbelly can speak to this issue in a way consistent with concerns about civility.

    I'm going to take another look at the GSST website to check for changes and perhaps make up an inventory of things that look promising and things that look like promise unfulfilled.
     
  6. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
  7. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Here are some faculty degrees which raise questions (there may be others):

    Beck--DMin from GSST (self-awarded)
    Graves--ThD from unknown school and PhD from PWU
    Hay--ThD from unknown school, PhD from *which* St John's?
    Lyles--DRE from GSST (self-awarded)
    D. Moore--DMin student at ACCS (incomplete, now unaccredited)
    A. Parker--DCM from GSST (self-awarded)
    J. Parker--ThD from GSST (self-awarded), DMin student at ACCS (incomplete, now unaccredited)

    I readily grant that there may be schools which are sufficiently theologically distinctive that they will hire only their own grads (the most conservative Lutheran seminaries are examples). Has GSST some theological difference that militates so strongly toward hiring their own? Is this in fact hiring their own, or is it simply faculty awarding one another degrees? Let all proper work be done for a degree, having one's colleagues supervising scarcely permits independent thought onthe part of the student or objective review on the part of the supervisors.

    What this looks like on the surface is a group of teachers with very poor academic credentials, including some outright questionable ones. If ACCS was the big step up for some of these men, what level were they on before?

    Let us grant good faith all around. This looks like an awfully long road ahead to respectability. Can they do it? Pugbelly says they *want* to. I hope he's right. But *can* they?

    --------

    Hi Bill: Right. We don't differ much at all. And I am sure you would include Church History among the academic disciplines. :) I just *might* be readier to recognize exceptions. No big deal. But for excellence in teaching, as opposed to mere adequacy, your RX appears uniformly necessary.
     
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  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    What continues to look like a promise unfulfilled, from various viewpoints, is the faculty listing of credentials. Every core faculty member of what GSST characterizes as "the most outstanding educators in their fields" has at least one unaccredited degree, and many have degrees from GSST itself. Going down the new faculty list I made the following observations.
    • Ronald T. Beck (Pastoral Counseling, Biblical Studies)claims a DMin from GSST. He used to claim a DMin (c) from American Christian College and Seminary, but no longer.

      Paul F. Graves (Biblical Studies, Theology, Christian Education) claims a PhD from Pacific Western University and a DMin from American Bible College and Seminary (now ACCS).

      Stanley L. Hay (Administration, Biblical Studies) claims a ThD from Pacific Western Evangelical Seminary (does anyone have any information about this school?) and a PhD from St John's University (Bad Dog?).

      Donald P. Lyles (Christian Education) holds a DRE from GSST. He also used to claim a DMin (c) from American Christian College and Seminary that is no longer listed.

      Daniel Moore (Mentoring) claims a DMin from American Christian College, but does not list a date (one of only two credentials on the faculty list that does not list a date).

      Ronald Moore (Biblical Studies, Theology) claims a MDiv from GSST and a DMin from ACCS.

      Gerald L. Oliver (Science, Business Math, Mathematics, Social Sciences) holds a MA from Azusa Pacific College.

      Ada A. Parker (Music, English) claims multiple degrees (from a ThB to a DCM) from GSST.

      James L. Parker (Theology, Pastoral Studies) claims a DD and a ThD from GSST, and a DMin from ACCS (the other credential on the faculty list that does not list a date).
    It has long since been noted that GSST used to market the fact that a significant amount of work toward a doctoral degree from ACCS could be completed at GSST (at a significantly lower cost) and then transferred to ACCS. Many individuals (including “he who cannot be named”) expressed the viewpoint that this was a very attractive and cost-effective proposition. To me, this was the logical explanation as to why so many faculty members with degrees from GSST, as recently as a few months ago, also listed themselves as “DMin (c) American Christian College and Seminary.” In fact, it is quite possible than many of them completed very little work at ACCS prior to listing themselves as “DMin (c).”

    The new faculty list reveals a few changes to this longstanding practice. Two individuals that used to list the “DMin (c) American Christian College and Seminary“ no longer mention the credential at all, while two others now list it as “DMin American Christian College and Seminary” without, however, specifying a date (in sharp contrast to all the other credentials on the faculty Web page). Could it be that they are still really candidates or “DMin (c)?” If so, is it proper to list their credentials the way they do?

    I believe these observations are important in the context of the relative merits of the credentials of GSST’s core faculty vis-à-vis specific programs, in light of the question of how ACCS’s loss of accreditation affects GSST, and the ethics and honesty of how an institution presents the credentials of its faculty.

    Perhaps contrary to the opinion of others, I do not believe that an entity can only be a degree mill if that is the explicit intent of the proprietors or those who run it. If a school offers programs that are sufficiently substandard, that is enough to question whether the school is a mill. If those who run the operation also engage is questionable or downright sleazy marketing practices, it doesn’t take much more to convince me.
     
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  9. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Perhaps I was being excessively decorous, Gus. Same thoughts at the same time--could that Swiss guy whose name I will not take into my mouth have been right about synchronicity? Woooo.

    I want to grant Pugbelly good faith. But what a mess these "credentials" are!
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    So, if I served on the faculty of, say, Zwingli College/Seminary/University, earned a DRE or DCM from the same, the doctorate would be considered "self-awarded?" :cool:
     
  11. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    If the faculty of Zwingli College/Seminary/University consisted of a handful of individuals, the majority of whom also claimed credentials from Zwingli College/Seminary/University, then I believe the doctorate could be considered either "self-awarded" or “incestually-awarded”—your choice. ;)
     
  12. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    And then we have Pastor Kenny Flaming (formerly of the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church), who is licensed with the Pentecostal Church of God, is an Ordained Minister with World Bible Way Fellowship, and is serving as Pastor of Cornerstone Fellowship Church in Truth or Consequences NM. According to the Web page for his R.E.V.I.V.A.L. USA MINISTRIES ( http://www.revivalusa.net/ ), which claims, “R.E.V.I.V.A.L. is an acronym for: ‘Restoring Evangelistic Vision (with) Integrity, Virtue and Love,’” Pastor Kenny “attended Jimmy Swaggart Bible College and Seminary, World Evangelism Bible College and Seminary in Baton Rouge Louisiana.”

    So what, you say?

    Well…

    Pastor Kenny until recently was affiliated with and ran a branch of Raven Ministries. His Web site (now defunct, but available at http://web.archive.org/web/20030624135417/http://www.ravenministries.net ) claimed, “R.A.V.E.N. is an acronym for ‘Restoring A Vision – Evangelizing Nations.’” Pastor Kenny also seemed intent on running something called the Destiny School of Theology (see http://web.archive.org/web/20030621170749/www.ravenministries.net/DestinySchoolofTheology.html ). I’m not sure of the connection, but one of Raven Ministries Web pages entitled “staff.htm,” which although also defunct can be accessed through Google’s cached function, was lifted, in its entirety, from GSST (see http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:MqgnaPj7y68J:www.ravenministries.net/staff.htm+%22Pacific+Western+Evangelical%22&hl=en ).

    Is it any wonder that Bears’ Guide stopped trying to keep up with the veritable plethora of less than wonderful “Christian” schools?
     
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  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    The issue for me is whether the faculty member teaching grad Theology has the appropriate accredited degree. I don't care if the faculty is ingrown, only if it is qualified.

    Here's the thing. I've a friend who just began a research PhD in Theology or Biblical Studies with a well known and much acclaimed UK GAAP school. He pays $7500 annual tuition. Couple weeks ago he was diagnosed with an enlarged heart. That is why he gets so very tired. He stuggles to keep up in his rigorous program. A job with an accredited Christian College awaits the completion of his degree. If he is able to finish , then after several more hard years, he already has an accredited four year ThM, he will have earned a doc in Theology.

    Meanwhile, lesser schools hand out ThDs for the sort of insubstantial, undergraduate stuff shown here in the GSST dissertation thread. We all can be doctors--Oh boy!

    :rolleyes:


    I'm sorry. The inequity of it offends me.
     
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  14. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    <Golden State School of Theology is not an approved school; it operates in California under a religious exemption.>>

    Correct. They are listed with the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (https://app1.dca.ca.gov/bppve/school-search/) as a registered institution. This is not the same thing as approval.

    Before we continue I would like to clarify some things things:

    1) I am not working with/for Dr. Graves or GSST in an official capacity. I am not an authorized representative, agent, employee, consultant, affiliate, etc. I apologize if that is how my initial post came across.

    2) The nature of my relationship (abbreviated to prevent reader boredom) with Dr. Graves is as follows: I began studies with GSST at some point in the past, maybe 2 years ago. Within a fairly short time thereafter I began asking him about things like accreditation, the school's direction, etc. I took a genuine liking to him as an individual. I began making suggestions to him regarding some very small things that I thought would benefit the school and its students (chat room, student discussion board for interaction and debate, etc.). Some of these things were already in progress and others were soon implemented. I left GSST after 54 hours of study but continued dialogue with Dr. Graves. I recognized that much of the school's infrastructure was well established but, in my opinion, lacked several important areas. Being a successful business person I approached Dr. Graves with the concept of partnering together to build GSST up and move it in a positive direction. Unfortunately this never came to pass but he acted on some of the things we discussed. We are still exchanging emails regarding my suggestions and advice. I don't know where things will go from here.

    Dr. Graves has a genuine desire to improve this school. MANY postive changes have already been made. Some of these changes are administrative in nature while others are academic. I feel a need to point out here that virtually all of these changes have been continual in nature and have nothing to do with me.

    3) There have been questions raised here about the quality and vigor of the GSST graduate and post-graduate programs. As I have never taken a GSST graduate course I am not qualified to speak to this issue. That being said, my opinion of the dissertation that has been discussed on prior threads, is that it was not at a doctorate level. I base this solely on the fact that I have read other dissertations that were much stronger, not from a higher academic critique.

    4) The expected future improvements to GSST, that I mentioned in my initial post, may well be limited to the undergraduate programs. I'm not sure. I am not at liberty to discuss the details but I know GSST is moving in a very positive direction, at least at the undergraduate level. I look for numerous changes to be made, perhaps even with the school structure itself.

    5) I think someone here posted something about it being odd that I, being only a student in Briercrest's BA program, is helping Dr. Graves. My "help" has been limited to motivation, facilitation, fact finding, and organization. These are general business issues, not academic issues. I have also offered advice on things like course format and structure (again, only at the undergraduate level) but NOT academic content. Having taken undergraduate courses from both NA and RA schools, I can honestly say that there is virtually no difference between GSST and other colleges with regard to course content (text books, writing assignments, projects, material covered in the course, etc.) If there is a weak point it is not in the content of the course offerings or in the program(s), it is in the format and structure of the courses themselves. Some very minor changes to the course format will significantly raise the academic quality of the entire program and would produce a better student.

    6) Faculty. Again, at the undergraduate level, the GSST faculty have sufficient credentials to teach. That may or may not be the case at the graduate and post-graduate levels. I will let others decide. The biggest obstacle facing GSST in this area is cash. GSST charges very little for their courses. In fact, their courses are virtually free to students that live in Asia. They simply don't have the budget to payroll full time, high priced faculty. The teachers and mentors at GSST perform their duties as a ministry. They are NOT paid. These men and women believe in the mission of the school and provide their services at no cost.

    7) The DETC issue. I was not involved in the private dialogue between Jimmy and Dr. Graves so I can't really speak to what was said or understood. I can only tell you about my own experience and history with Dr. Graves regarding this issue. I was told by Dr. Graves that GSST had been in contact with the DETC and hoped to make application with them. After several months of hearing nothing I contacted Dr. Graves. He then stated that in reading through the DETC material and discussing some particulars with the DETC, GSST had decided not to make application. Part of the reasoning was financial in nature and part was ethical. I was never led to believe anything other than this. I was certainly never told that GSST had in fact applied for accreditation or were in formal consultations with the DETC.

    I hope this clears up most of the questions that have been asked of me.

    Pug
     
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Pug

    While I think your post may have slid around some of my questions, leaving them unanswered, I do appreciate your response. I think it is good for schools to try to improve themselves. I also think that it is a Christian thing for qualified people to donate their time. I sincerely hope that when my dissertation is done I can do that too. Again, I do not mean by my posts here to suggest that the character of anyone connected with GSST is deficit in any area except , likely, IMO, in the areas of getting and giving of academic graduate degrees for insubstantial work and in vastly overstating the merits of that school and the accomplishments of its faculty.
     
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  16. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Pug:

    I mentioned Briercrest. I have scads more regard for Briercrest than I do for the current state of affairs at GSST. Your clarifications of your role at GSST were very helpful. I had gathered that you were doing some sort of consultancy and wondered what other experience you were bringing to that. Given the informal character of your relationship with Dr Graves, that's not an issue that has any bearing on your or his credibility.

    Your post gives the detail that supports what I said: you are an advocate for a better GSST, not a shill. GSST looks pretty far gone down the ol' mill stream, but if you can help them reverse course, more power to you.

    By the way, do they have a distinct theology that would prompt or require them to "hire their own"? If they do, your time there was more than enough to make it plain.

    Should they ever put up on their website a policy statement that GSST expects all its faculty to possess accredited (RA/NA/ATS/foreign GAAP) degrees within, say ten years or five years and will support them financially and logistically in combining this academic endeavor with their current responsibilities at GSST, nobody would cheer louder than the old Carpathian.

    Since there are, presumably, many people out there with really substandard degrees from GSST, some slight change in the name of the institution might be a good idea (not to conceal the continuity, but to demarcate the old standardless approach from the new).

    About GSST's present, I am deeply dubious. But I'm happy to hope for a better and more creditable future.

    __________


    Hi Vladica Russell: Zwingli wasn't the Swiss I had in mind; he's far too alt for that. ;)
     
  17. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    Hi Janko...can I call you Janko? :)

    Regarding Briercrest - Yes, Briercrest is, in my opinion, a well respected, well established school. I am very happy to be part of the BA CS program.

    Regarding GSST's theology: No, they do not have a unique theology that would prompt or require them to hire their own. They are nondenominational, conservative, evangelical, dispensationalists. I believe many of the instructors and mentors are pentecostals. I believe that several faculty members that hold GSST degrees became faculty out of loyalty to the school following their own GSST graduations. This is only my opinion of course. As I stated earlier in the thread, these individuals are not paid. They teach and provide mentoring services as a ministry.

    Yes, I am an advocate for a better GSST. I genuinely like Dr. Graves and I admire and appreciate the energy the faculty, including Dr. Graves, puts into the school. They all give generously and freely of their own time. No matter what one thinks of the quality of the faculty, their motives shouldn't be questioned as there is simply no financial gain to be had.

    A name change? It's funny that you bring this up because I have suggested the exact same thing to him (Dr. Graves) for different reasons. You may actually see a name change in the future, I'm not sure. If there is a name change I suspect it will be at the undergraduate level. I think you may see a separation between the college and the seminary at some point. If this happens I would think the names would change accordingly.

    Pug
     
  18. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    <<While I think your post may have slid around some of my questions, leaving them unanswered, I do appreciate your response.>>

    Bill, I didn't intend to slide around your questions. I think I answered the questions as I had information to answer them. I even provided some additional information that wasn't asked. If you are referring to your questions pertaining to the GSST graduate and postgraduate programs, and the garduate and postgraduate degrees held by GSST faculty, I deliberately didn't answer them. The reason I didn't answer those particular questions is because I don't know how the faculty earned their degrees and I can't attest to the vigor or quality of the the upper level programs of study. My comments would be mere speculation. I'll say this: since I noted areas that could be improved at the undergraduate level, it stands to reason that the same would probably hold true at the upper levels as well. That is not to say that a student doesn't learn while in a GSST program. I learned quite a bit with GSST. The content of a GSST course is comparable to that of accredited schools. The difference, in my opinion, is that the format of a GSST course allows a student to become sloppy and/or lazy. Change a couple of things with the format and the quality of the course jumps significantly.

    Pug
     
  19. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Pug:

    Thanks for your new posts. It will be interesting to keep an eye on this school and how it evolves. I appreciated your clarification of their theology, too. That makes the problem of assessing quality more straightforward. Certainly your view of Dr Graves is encouraging. If he is as serious as you indicate, I hope his efforts pay off. Reforms too little too late cost ACCS its accreditation; an energetic program of reforms carried through with integrity at GSST--and it would be pretty painful and partly embarrassing--might in a few years turn GSST from crud into a contender. Let's hope so, with our eyes open.

    Janko
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
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