Pug, Jimmy, Or? on Golden State School of Theology

Good Morning Bill:

<<You and I possibly disagree over whether if similar materials to those used by accredited schools are used by GSST then the effect of the unaccredited degrees of the GSST faculty are minimized.>>

No, I didn't mean this at all. I was just suggesting that, in my opinion, the weak areas in the undergraduate programs rest more with the format of the course than with the course materials or faculty. The GSST faculty is qualified to teach at the undergraduate level for sure. (Clarified shortly)

<<My recommendations would be to drop the ThD in Systematic Theology and to tone down some of the claims made.>>

I agree.


<<Generally it has been my perception that an accredited masters is the minimal qualification to teach undergrad courses. Would you agree? That seems fairly standard! Do you feel that you have the information to share by what standard you unhesitatingly affirm above that the GSST faculty clearly is qualified to teach undergrad courses in Bible/Theology? Are you going by the Bible College Association standard? Or an RA? Or TRACS? Or DETC? Or is it just your personal opinion or the personal opinion of others about the faculty qualifications?>>

I am going by the AABC standard. I have not looked at the specific standards for DETC or TRACS. The AABC requires that a school have at least one qualified instructor for each program offered. Qualified is defined as a graduate degree from an accredited (RA, ATS, TRACS) school. I personally contacted the AABC to clarify whether this meant one instructor per area of concentration within the program or one instructor per program. It is one instructor per program. GSST certainly exceeds this standard. Incidentally, I am of the opinion that GSST should change their BTh program to a BA in Biblical Studies. The course requirements for the BTh program are more in line with Biblical Studies in my opinion. I've suggested it to Dr. Graves but I don't know whether he is considering making the change.

<<Do you really not know (one of my questions above I don't think you answered) whether 1/2 of the GSST faculty would meet the TRACS criteria for giving instruction in graduate Bible/Theology? TRACS posts its standards on its website. >>

No, I really don't know. I've never read the criteria on the TRACS website. I assume that you have and have determined that the GSST faculty, in general, don't meet the standard to teach at the graduate level. If that's the case I trust your assessment. As I've said earlier in the thread, my discussions with Dr. Graves have been, and will remain, limited to the undergraduate programs. In fact, I have urged Dr. Graves to divide the school into two: Bible College and Seminary.

<<And you really can express no opinion as to whether it is academically sound to offer a ThD in Systematic Theology , clearly the content of that GSST curriculum, when no one there at GSST has an accredited doc in Systematic Theology? That does not seem improper to you?>>

I agree with you here.


Pug

 

I fail to understand why a school that is essentially doing missionary work in providing courses at $100 per should come under such repeated criticism.

I can see where people are lining their pockets, but when instructors are working for free, what's the deal?

Almost anyone should realize that accreditation would double or triple the tuition.

I don't see any negatives in GSST'S operation. The schools that offer quality programs but remain unaccredited seem to distress a lot of people around here.

There are lots of grossly substandard Christian schools out there. Target those.

 

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I have an investment in Theological education, and I have the expertise and the right to give my opinion. If you don't like it--then, that's just tough Dennis!

One reason is that this school is not essentially just doing missionary work in Asia, is it ; it is rather offering academic degrees. IF IT JUST WISHES TO "TRAIN", WHY GIVE ACADEMIC DEGREES?? Academic degrees should be rigorous. Faculty qualification is a primary ingredient to assure rigor in taught programs.

Why would a missionary or an Asian in training need a masters or a doc degree? Why would one need a doc in Religious Education or a ThD in Systematic Theology? But if one indeed does need such grad degrees , there are, in fact, quite inexpensive and significantly superior options than GSST. Of course, these require rigor.

Another reason is this school claims standards "among the highest in the nation." That sort of claim is in part what I am responding to. Why would you criticize my response to such claims? Do you think schools or their defenders should get away with saying whatever? Is that what you've become? Do you, yourself, let defenders do that?

Of course accreditation would raise tuition. I didn't raise this issue of GSST becoming accredited. I only care about quality. There are UNACCREDITED seminaries with qualified faculty. There are also GAAP programs which are even cheaper than GSST.

There also are even GAAP schools which particularly specialize in offering programs of study to Asians at very low cost as International School of Theology-Asia. Yet this school , IST-A, has a highly qualified faculty--look it up and compare it with GSST!


You know, this, your gripe, is really something. No one is picking on a person here, Dennis. No one is calling people names. No one is abusing another poster. We are dealing with the question of the quality of a school. Isn't that regularly done? Don't YOU do that too? You know, like you do with Union??? But you gripe when I do it? Isn't that just a bit hypocritical?

I target what I will -as I am allowed to. If you don't like it, go complain to Bruce some more. Go say to the moderators, "Bill's picking on a school again." Go say on those other forums what a big meanie I am.

If I am a big meanie, at least, Hell will not be my fate as a certain person , a grad of GSST( how does that grab ya, Pug) , who claims only expertise in Pastoral Counseling not Theology or Biblical Interpretation, has Biblically there on another forum "proven " that Hell does not exist...hahahaha! What a joke.

 

Isn't it interesting, Bill, Pug, Gus, Russell, how constructive this thread is?

Let's stick to the business of this thread. Something good is being accomplished here, due largely to Pug and Bill combining first-hand knowledge and technical expertise in their exchanges here.

Ignore provocation from those whom it is thread-doom to criticize.
They have their forum on another website. Let them enjoy it.

Do not fall for an attempt to get this thread closed.

Present criticisms and future possibilities of GSST are too important for that.

Who knows but what Dr Graves may find this discussion helpful to observe (if likely impolitic to join!) as he considers the future of his school.

Let's keep up the good work, guys. It matters.

 

Why would I do that? It's not what I do.

My only point is that when people are are providing extremely low cost Christian education how much criticism do they deserve?

To me it's like criticizing the local shelter because they serve bologna sandwiches instead of steak.

We certainly are sensitive today. Did someone smirk when you said you were enrolled in the University of Z... forget I said that.

 

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Dennis

I'm glad you don't do that.

I've never besmirched your effort at CCU. I've tried to be your friend.

Your question is fair, but I think I answered it with several points to which you did not respond: Training does not require academic degrees, but if such are given, they must be honestly earned! There are cheaper GAAP schools where they may be earned!!!

.
GSST says it is dishing out steak! GSST says its programs are of high quality, not shelter stuff. Dennis , a ThD is NOT balona!

I will compare the UZ ThD to the GSST ThD if that is an issue for you.

 

<<So you are saying that the AABC standard for Bible/Theology faculty qualification is that the school has just ONE faculty person with an accredited masters in Bible / Theolgy. All other faculty members who teach Bible/Theology need not be qualified at all in this manner. Their credentials do not matter! Others may have unaccredited degrees or no degrees at all for that matter as long as there is one person around who has the accredited, appropriate masters. AABC deems that arrangement sufficient? Very surprising to me!>>

Bill, no, I am not suggesting that GSST, or any other school, can get away with one faculty member with an earned graduate degree in Bible Theology while all other faculty has unaccredited degrees. I never said that. What I said was that the AABC standard was to have one faculty member with an accredited graduate degree per program.

<<So, first the GSST faculty roster lists five who teach Bible/Theology: Beck, Graves, Hay, Moore, Parker. Do you know which of these has/have the accredited masters in Bible/Theology? I don't see one there, but maybe I'm wrong. I do see ACCS DMins, but these are ministry degrees and not in Bible/Theology, right?>>

Bill, I feel like somewhere along the line you turned this discussion into a question of whether or not GSST could earn AABC accreditation in its current state. No one has made this claim. In fact, I believe what I have said is that GSST has made positive changes to its program. I expressed optimism about additional changes that, in my opinion, should still be made. I also stated that GSST, in accordance with AABC standards, would be qualified to head a Bible/Theolgy program. That's not to say that every member of the GSST faculty would be qualified to teach in that capacity.

<<However, if you will look at the FAQS page at the AABC website you will read,

"...faculty members in AABC institutions are REQUIRED (my caps) to have completed ACCREDITED (my caps) graduate degrees in the field of their instructional responsibilty."

I really do not think that you are applying the AABC standard to the GSST faculty correctly! It really looks to me that EACH member must have the appropriate accredited degree---not just one member!>>

Bill, you and I agree on this issue. I never said that every memebr of the GSST faculty would be qualified to teach Bible/Theology. I said that GSST was qualified to do so, and they are.

I am optimistic about future changes but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Pug

 

Pug

I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that in your opinion each member of the GSST faculty was qualified by the AABC standard which you were applying to each faculty member. Sorry.

So you are saying that SOME of the GSST Theology faculty meet AABC standards as they have accredited grad degrees in Theology . Which ones?

 

<<So you are saying that SOME of the GSST Theology faculty meet AABC standards as they have accredited grad degrees in Theology . Which ones?>>

Not necessarily Theology. The degree could also be in Biblical Studies, Religion (depending on the concentration), or another similar field. If you comb through the member schools on the AABC website you will find a few that list their faculty and include the field in which their degrees were earned. There is not always an exact match. As far as which faculty/mentors have the appropriate credentials, I don't know. I will look into it.


Pug

 

I just have had a series of emails with Dr. Graves, Pres of GSST. I initiated this. In these I mentioned that I here critique GSST. Dr. Graves took this in graceful and forgiving stride. That in itself suggests to me that he is a fine, mature Christian individual. We may disagree on what makes for deficits in education, but I do not because of that think that Dr. Graves is deficit at all in character.

 

I am delighted to hear that, Bill. We were asked long ago to choose between thinking Graves was honorable and thinking somebody else was honorable. I trust Pug and you vouching for the man's character. Again, the cooperative spirit of this thread stands in vivid contrast to every form of millism.

A suggested line of inquiry: some of the GSST fac schools are now accredited. Were they when the degrees were obtained? Mind, I have supported the idea in the past that an unaccredited degree from a school moving in good order toward accreditation is better than a degree from a school static in its substandardness. If, say, Beacon or Luther Rice weren't yet accredited, they may well have been doing the constructive things that led to accreditation during the years the GSST fac were students there.

It is also necessary to distinguish between somebody whose degree is off-timing with regard to accreditation and somebody playing games with their school's accreditation-or-not. Not the same at all.

BTW, I concur that this is about a school potentially improving, not about whether they are likely candidates for accreditation now or at some future point. The AABC standards *do* provide a useful measure--and one which we cannot be accused of making up to suit ourselves!

Again, guys, good work and high style!

 

It should also be mentioned in passing that both TRACS and the AABC when considering the faculty of schools for accreditation do make exceptions to the general standard of accredited degrees. By that I mean that rare folks may be eminently qualified to teach even if they have no accredited degrees. The AABC site says 93% of the faculty of schools it accredits have the appropriate degree.

 

From my experience there is no question that Paul Graves is a man of integrity. There very well could have been some confusion concerning terminology with their (GSST's) pursuance of DETC accreditation. Paul is also very well versed in matters of accreditation. Being well versed is not the same as having qualified faculty, but the fact is, he does know what he's talking about when it comes to this subject.

While I don't know that anyone here has the time or inclination, I do know that Paul Graves has been looking for qualified instructors/mentors for the GSST program. If some here with accredited degrees were willing to help in this regard (without pay), it might help to upgrade the school's status in the minds of many. At one time I was hoping to assist them in this regard, but par for the course, I was so bogged down with other duties that I didn't think I would be able to take on additional responsibilities.

BLD

 

It's refreshing to actually have a dialogue where people aren't slinging insults.

Bill, I'm glad you and Dr. Graves have exchanged some emails. As I said, he really is a man of integrity.

<<While I don't know that anyone here has the time or inclination, I do know that Paul Graves has been looking for qualified instructors/mentors for the GSST program. If some here with accredited degrees were willing to help in this regard (without pay), it might help to upgrade the school's status in the minds of many. >>

I think this would be a wonderful ministry for someone! Bill, perhaps you should set a reminder for yourself for November.


Pug

 

The strangest thing happened a little bit ago...I was doing a search on GSST and came across the following institution:

College of Professional Christian Studies

The odd thing is that they claim to formerly be "Golden State School of Theology" and have an almost identical history to GSST as listed on their website. Furthermore, they share some similar faculty members. Does anyone know anything about the connection? This is all new to me.

BLD

 

<<While I don't know that anyone here has the time or inclination, I do know that Paul Graves has been looking for qualified instructors/mentors for the GSST program. If some here with accredited degrees were willing to help in this regard (without pay), it might help to upgrade the school's status in the minds of many. >>

Nope. No idea.

Pug

 

Hi BLD: Thanks for the new information and the vouching for Dr Graves' integrity and openness. Wonder what this other outfit is? J.