Oregon is getting rid of the bar requirement!

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by SweetSecret, Nov 8, 2023.

  1. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Different states have different laws and I assume different questions, especially regarding state laws. I had a lawyer friend that moved from New York back to California and he had to retake the BAR exam. From that perspective the BAR exam would seem to make a lot of sense. On the other hand he was a patent lawyer so I suspect most of the test questions were irrelevant to his actual work. I doubt the different lawyers knowledge base is as radically different compared to different medical specialties though.
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    That's my biggest concern with the "portfolio assessment". You can never say that something within your area won't trigger some other consequences outside your area. The Bar exam is a broad test for that reason. How can a portfolio cover the same terrain?
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No, not "okay if I say so." I'm just saying so.
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I admit that I am deeply cynical about the ability of the ABA to enforce any sort of quality standards on their member schools. For one thing, ABA standards measure inputs for the most part, not good management policy if it can be avoided. The ABA has only very limited data regarding "product" so to speak and a school's aggregate Bar pass rate is a large part of what data they do have.

    That by itself isn't really a good reason for requiring a Bar exam but I'm awfully wary of allowing law graduates to practice without some external verification of their basic competence.

    Fact is, if you can't pass the Bar exam in your first three attempts I suggest that a career in the law might not suit you.

    Medical schools are heavily regulated yet medical students are also required to undergo examination.
  5. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I have seen interesting data where the BAR pass rates seemed to be clustered for different schools. What I mean is that some schools seemed to have high first test pass rates and others had much lower rates. What I always assumed though was a part of the difference is based on the quality of the students themselves and another part would be based on the quality of the education. The more prestigious the school the more selective the school could be with admitting students.
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    It's all of those things.
  7. jonlevy

    jonlevy Active Member

  8. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    I don't want to drag this this thread off topic but since you brought it up, can you show any examples of people unable to read being given high school diplomas in Oregon?

    Because removing the requirement to pass a particular standardized test on top of the curriculum hasn't changed the need to pass all of their classes, which include reading and writing.
  9. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    Standardized test or no, this kind of thing does happen. I don't think it's anywhere near as widespread as some people would have you believe, though.
    Xspect and Johann like this.
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Agreed. I've read once in a while about such incidents. In the US, the 'moment of discovery' is often soon after the HS 'grad' shows up on a college campus, where they have been 'drafted' for a football - or other sport - scholarship. And these young people are NOT all from the State of Oregon.
    Xspect and Rachel83az like this.
  11. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    But the comment I replied to was specifically tying this change in Oregon's graduation requirements to illiteracy and I want @jonlevy to either back their statement up or admit that it was hogwash.

    There are students who struggle to read in many states. Only Oregon is getting attacked here and for spurious reasons.
  12. jonlevy

    jonlevy Active Member

    The reason for the exams was as a back stop to perceived social promotion. Failing students leads to cuts in funding, so social promotion is the answer. Much like why hospitals like to discharge dying patients, too many dead patients leads to Medicare cuts. However, if someone puts in the time, why not give them a HS diploma, it would be mean not to. And yes I am picking on Oregon, but they deserve it.
  13. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    So in conclusion, you made it up.

    Citation needed. The OAKS was developed for state and federal accountability purposes. (https://www.ode.state.or.us/wma/teachlearn/testing/resources/essentialskills_faq_04092013.pdf) I can't find anything to support that it had anything to do with social promotion.

    How exactly? There's nothing in the education funding model about student achievement. (https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/lpro/Publications/Education%20Funding%20Background%20Report%202023.pdf)

    Non-sequitur, irrelevant.

    Nobody is saying that but you.
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    In 1976, California implemented the California High School Proficiency Exam. Passing it would grant the recipient a diploma that was the legal equivalent of a high school diploma. Anywhere the state had jurisdiction, the diploma had to be accepted when a high school diploma was required. The program continues to this day, although the exam was recently changed out. You have to be 16 or have completed 10th grade. No upper age limit. Not the GED.

    I sat for the exam in its second-ever administration back then. I was 16, but had only successfully completed the 8th grade. (I was socially promoted to high school). It was a Saturday morning. I did the 3.5-hour exam in an hour and never went back to school, confident in the results. The diploma and score transcript came in the mail weeks later. The Air Force accepted it when I enlisted. That was the last time I used it.
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    But not a GED? What was that about?
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's not a GED.

    Y0u could take the CHSPE exam and still be in school. You could take it as early as 16 years of age without parental consent. The CHSE had legal standing in California. (It's replacement still does.) Minors who passed it could work more hours. They also did not have to drop out of school.

    About 60% of first-timers passed the CHSPE. For the GED it was about 75%.

    I took it because I didn't have to get a parental waiver, which would have been complicated at that time, and I wanted to work at closer-to-full-time hours.
    Jonathan Whatley likes this.
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Cool, now do red states. Because their K-12 systems must rock, right?
    Dustin likes this.
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I attended the original and largest High School in my state capital. The community loved their schools and money flowed like...well, maybe not water but 20W oil. I kind of kick myself for not taking all the CLEP tests of the time but I definitely came into college very well prepared.

    I missed being a National Merit semi-finalist (those kids were scary smart) but I did get their consolation Letter of Commendation which got half my tuition waived at my college.

    I have thought that that I could have done well with more guidance in those days but...well...things worked out pretty well. No complaints.

    EDIT: I found my H. S. diploma the other day.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2023
    SweetSecret and SteveFoerster like this.

Share This Page