Oregon, again

I can't argue with that. The courts will have the ultimate say in this, as they always do.

I won't comment on Darris personally, other than to say that I disagree strongly with both his assertion that Berne has the equivalent of USDoEd-recognized accreditation, and with his attempts to insult Alan Contreras simply for doing the job that the legislature handed him.

It does. The crimial penalties are found in the very last section:

348.992 Criminal penalty. Violation of any of the provisions of ORS 348.594 to 348.615 by any person individually or on behalf of an organization or group is a Class B misdemeanor. [1997 c.652 §15; 1999 c.59 §97]

You know Nosborne, I find this whole thing fascinating on several levels:

Trying to outlaw the *use* of unacceptable degrees is an interesting approach, but I think that this is probably the law's weakest point. The idea of what use includes is awfully vague, and there may be free-speech and free-association issues involved.

But entirely separate from that, there is the issue of international accreditation-equivalence. This goes right to the heart of why accreditation exists in the first place and to why the Oregon legislature insisted upon it.

In particular I don't like schools that try to exploit loopholes in order to avoid credible quality assurance oversight. Trying to argue that Berne's status is equivalent to that of a school accredited by a USDoEd accreditor is like beating one's head against a brick wall. The ODA is on very strong ground here, I think.

I sympathise with your dilemma. If you bother to read my posts, you already know that there are a whole collection of CA-approved schools that I like a lot. A few of them are actually very good, and others offer unique programs that are hard to duplicate elsewhere.

My instinct is to say that if you really like that CA-approved JSD, then why not enroll in it as if it were non-degree continuing education? You would still learn the same stuff, and if you ultimately got the degree it would be your choice when and where you used it. (As long as you steer clear of Oregon, I guess...)

You know, even in Oregon you could probably get the degree recognized pretty easily through Mr. Contreras' office. I noticed on his website that several non-accedited out-of-state schools have already received the Oregon imprimatur.

 

Let me start by saying I am not pursuing nor considering pursuing a Berne degree. However, we should try to avoid emotion with Berne and stick to facts.

No one can contest that Berne degrees are not the equivalent of RA degrees in terms of utility.

Because they can get a NACES evaluation saying they have equivalency ( 2 agencies apparently) their degrees may be of some utility to some folks. Caveat is to be careful. Obtaining a state certifcation of some kind does not mean that when you are competing for a job that a St. Kitts address for your alma mater is going to play as well as other GAAP degrees.

Yes Berne is a New Hampshire school who located their campus in St. Kitts. Does not look good. At the time Berne was founded I doubt their RA was very warm to DL so perhaps that was the reason. End run...possibly. The methodology they use in terms of renting a campus/residency is the same as Walden & Capella.

2 years is not long for a PhD but the same is possible at UIU (RA) with similar residency.

Berne had a shaky start with claiming accreditation from not so wonderful agencies. As reported here the history of UIU and U of Sarasota both included them being called mills in the beginning.

Yes Berne apparently waived the residency requirement of a PhD student. So did Capella (as reported here) so I do not know that situation alone is damning.

No one has provided any evidence that the requirements for a Berne PhD are less than what another DL PhD (RA) program would require. I am not saying they are not but no one has posted any proof of this...........none.

Personally, I find Berne over priced in terms of the possible utility of the degree and it would not be my choice for where to pursue a PhD.

North

 

Bear's Guide 14th edition

"Berne University
Berne's administrative office is in New Hampshire. Its degree-granting authority comes from the country of St. Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean, which has also accredited Berne. The doctorate is earned through a one-month residency in St. Kitts, followed by two semesters of part-time work by distance learning with a faculty mentor. The doctorate is normally completed in one to two years of part-time study, but persons who have acceptable published work can complete the degree through the one-month residency plus one 5-month term of guided independent study. Applicants must have a bachelor's or master's degree or equivalent, with a minimum of one year of experience as a practicing professional. " [It's late so I'm not copying anymore.]

It is very fishy for an institution in one country to claim degree granting authority in another country. I note that this is a totally different thing from an institution in one country opening a branch in another country, which is reasonable.

Any institution where the doctorate is normally completed in one to two years of part-time study is a degree mill in my book. Now it can be argued that Bear's Guide is mistaken on this point, but arguing that Levicoff got a RA degree in two years from an RA institution just doesn't matter. You know that two years is a rare exception for RA and it doesn't get any shorter than that. The normal is much greater. When the normal is one to two years of part-time study then I think it's very fair to call it a degree mill.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that remark. Why would one spend $20,000+ for a questionable degree, from the West Indies, when you can find a legitimate (including RA) doctoral program for the same money elsewhere?

At least I can understand the appeal of a typical degree mill: they're very, very cheap and don't require any real work.

 

This post is not in regard to Berne, however, the above statement seems somewhat oxymoronic, Bill. Based on the above the following is true:

1) Any institution offering a Ph.D. in two years is a degree mill.
2) Levicoff's Ph.D. is from a degree mill. (Oh No, am I coming to Levicoff's defense? Only in regard to his RA degree!!!)

Neither of which is completely true.

One of the drawing cards for schools like Union (and others of its kind) is that the Ph.D. CAN BE completed in a shorter period of time. Do some take longer than two years? Yes. But if what Rich has noted is correct, that Union learners are technically enrolled at 3/4 time, the degree is designed to be completed at this pace in two years

Also, many South African doctorates can be completed in two years, and are viewed as being RA equivalent.

 

The argument was, "Any institution where the doctorate is normally completed in one to two years of part-time study is a degree mill in my book."

I believe that the two statements are subtantially different. It seems that the shortest period of time for an RA Ph.D. is two years. Just jumping through the minimum required hoops takes that long. As I'm sure that you're aware, the norm is much greater than two years for an RA degree. This is a substantially different norm than one to two years of part-time study, probably over double.

 

John Bear has made a most excellent suggestion in the past. A committee of scholars that review and rate a sampling of the dissertations some from RA schools and some from the school in question. This would best be done without them even knowing the sources of those dissertations.

 

So there IS a criminal penalty? Somebody hid my trifocals again, I guess. On line legal research isn't my strongest point these days...

The thing about just quietly DOING the NW Cal JSD is that the faculty of this reasonably legitimate California correspondence law school comprises partly JDs from non ABA schools as well as a few JDs from the ABA approved University of the Pacific. There are two JSDs but each received the degree from NW Cal! I think there's a PhD as well.

It just seems a little thin for a doctoral program, is all. Would I really learn how to do publishable research? That's the whole point.

Nosborne, JD

 

===



Thanks. Yes I can see the value in this. But I also see possible difficulties:



First, it would seem an enormous task to do if the evaluators critiqued only dissertations in their own disciplines..so many areas to cover. Would the Committee not have to include many members?

Then another problem might be that some doctoral dissertations follow a substantial amount of classwork whereas in other cases there is no classwork. Should expectations be the same for both situations?

A third concern could be that some doctoral programs are based on a 1-2 year MA and some on a 3 or even 4 year's masters. Should the requisites of the dissertation be the same regardless of the nature of the foundational masters?

Also, another difficulty might be the subjectivity of one's judgement. Evidence of this is the massive debate on this board over the Walston Potch thesis. Here one grad of DTS claimed that certain prof(s) of DTS agreed with him that Rick's work should not have past muster. I also, for better or worse, agreed with him. This example only is given to illustrate the possibility of subjectivity. Yes, he got the degree and rightfully so as Potch passed him. But would such a Committee regard that dissertation as the equivalent of DTS's, as an example of an RA school, if DTS profs were on that Committe? Of course, the effective argument for the justifiability of the Potch decision on Rick's product was that it was up to them after all, not anyone else, to evaluate that thesis and it was only their criteria that mattered! A similar stance might be taken by the school being evaluated by such a committee.

A fifth difficulty might be that in some cases rather than a dissertation a "project" is the culmination of the doctoral program. Now my ThM thesis earned me only 4 units( but took me a year of 1/2 time effort). But ACCS allows 9 units for its ARP. Yet, should a project equal a dissertation? If not, how would the committee evaluate it?

A further possible difficulty is that the dissertation may reflect not only (or even) the rigor of the school but also( or only) the entering skills and/or knowledge of the student and that student's personal work ethic. Therfore it would seem than any sampling of a school's dissertations should be of a sufficient quantity to contain such variables and it should determined to what extent the worth of the dissertation corresponds to the virtue of the school. Otherwise, a school might receive high marks because a diisertation evaluated was written by an exceptional student.

Seemingly the evaluation of a school's quality is a tough, complex problem. But Dr. Bear's suggestion is good.

 

I'm interested in this too.

I don't think that there is any kind of definitive test. It's going to be an impressionistic kind of thing, a judgement call.

What I like to do is "Google my school". This is often rather enlightening, especially at the doctoral level. Ph.D.s are supposed to be research degrees. Dissertations are supposed to be original contributions to a field. That's intellectual life. So, what kind of evidence can I find for intellectual life at the school that I'm interested in?

What I look for is papers and books published, conference presentations and meetings hosted, collaborative relationships with other schools, faculty that I've heard of, departmental and research project webpages, grants won and so on. I'm impressed by schools that offer contract educational services for prominent corporations and government agencies. I look for references to the school in professional publications.

I've done this to a number of schools, accedited and no-accredited, and the results are interesting.

Most conventional universities do very well. I did San Francisco State (which doesn't even have doctoral programs) and found countless papers and presentations, along with the Sutro Egyptian Collection, membership in the Moss Landing Marine Laboratory collaboration, an archaeological dig in El Salvador, an attempt to fabricate superconducting microchips with weird quantum properties, studies of Chinese transliteration systems and Japanese early childhood education, a huge contract to educate bankers in China on Western banking methods, artists' shows at prominent galleries and performance spaces, several MacArthur genius grants and hundreds of additional hits. (I didn't even try Berkeley, knowing that the thousands of hits would simply overwhelm me.)

Among CA-approved schools, I noted a decent showing by (among a few others) Hsi Lai. One of their big shots speaking at UCLA, a meeting of the International Association of Asian Philosophers hosted by HLU, their dean serving as a panelist at a UC Berkeley conference, publishing their own journal, participation in a UNESCO conference on interreligious dialogue in Tashkent, providing the keynote speaker at the launch of the new World Buddhist University in Bankok, hosting the First International Conference on Humanistic Buddhism etc. (Soon after my doing the search, HLU announced WASC candidacy.)

Moving down the food chain, there's a class of school that generates lots of hits, but of a rather different sort. What you see in these cases are lots and lots of online resumes, plus many listings in college guide sites. These are schools that remind me of donuts, surrounded by lots of graduates and aggressive marketing, but with an intellectual hole in the middle. This is the profile of places like Kennedy Western. And sad to say, a few RA DL programs also look like this.

Finally you hit the bottom of the barrel. There are online universities that offer impressive sounding degrees (usually Ph.Ds) in lots of subjects but which generate virtually no hits at all. Nothing... except for their own websites. I consider this the classic degree-mill signature.

I'm not arguing that this 'Google-test' is definitive. But it is suggestive, and it certainly influences me.

 

Bill D.

That google search sounds good!

 

Aha. But this would tend to penalize new programs, wouldn't it?

Nosborne, JD

 

Known as the Google And Dayson Degree Acceptability Minimum Norms Information Test, it allows institutions that pass the test to state: We are accredited GADDAMNIT!

 

Bill Dayson: I did the same thing, with interesting and cautionary results--and some encouragement, too.

 

Of course, it would also penalize crummy programs...

Nosborne, JD

 

Yeah, it would. I'm not sure that's an entirely bad thing though, since programs take a while to really get rolling.

Hsi Lai U. was only founded in 1991 and moved to its present site in 1996. It achieved WASC candidacy in 2002. It seems to have surfaced around 1997 when it hosted a meeting of the International Association of Asian Philosophers.

Small schools will probably have smaller footprints as well. But once again this may point to something real, since if a school is going to be granting doctorates, particularly in multiple fields, it needs some critical mass.

Perhaps the extreme is the City of Hope's graduate school, which received regional accreditation from WASC in 2001 with 33 students. Of course, the City of Hope is a large medical center in LA that has had a very prominent research effort since long before it started granting Ph.D.s in biotechnology.

I guess that some allowance has to be made for a school's size and for its age, but I'm not sure how much. And obviously all of this stuff will get rolled in with whether or not any of this activity is in a field that we are personally interested in and how significant we think it is.

It's all far more suggestive than it is definitive.

 

Good analysis Bill. You are ready to begin your ARP....otherwise known as evaluative research with an eye to application as first used by McCormick Theological Seminary (adapted from Edward Suchman's publication presented at Columbia Seminary). It is problem oriented looking at theorems as applicable within applied research as hypotheses as to what will work and produces certain results and outcomes.
***Paraphrased from the ACCS Evaluative & Applied Research Guide for Doctoral Programs.

Good luck Bill.

North