NovaSE Criminal Justice PhD

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by JLJ, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    I think that's true in just about any subject. Elon Musk only has a bachelors degree (in physics... he was accepted into Stanford's PhD program but quit after 2 days), but I'd bet that many universities would love to have him on their faculties. (The engineering and business departments would fight over him.) There are many others like him. If you accomplish something out there in the real world and make a name for yourself, the ivory towers are apt to eventually notice you and the fact that you lack a PhD or your doctorate isn't from a prestige program will be less of a problem. That's especially true in applied fields.

    Even in exceedingly scholarly fields like philosophy, I expect that somebody with a doctorate from a low-prestige program but a record of publications that get his ideas talked about a lot by other philosophers, could find a job further up the food chain. (You know you've arrived when your ideas become the topics of graduate seminars.) Accomplishments still count for something, even in the academic world.

    There's another consideration that I've noticed in education doctorates but probably also applies in CJ. Many of the less prestigious programs treat their subjects differently than the 'elite' programs.

    Here in California, the California State Universities were (and generally speaking still are) forbidden by law from offering doctoral degrees (except as joint degrees with other schools). CSU prestige is far beneath the University of California. But the CSUs are the state's teacher's colleges, they train most of the state's school teachers and school administrators. They are joined at the hip with the state's school districts. The CSUs train more of California's teachers than all other higher education institutions... combined.

    Meanwhile, all the doctorates in education were coming out of the University of California system which was more remote and aloof from the school districts and what was actually happening in classrooms. The UCs were influenced far more by current academic fashion. So UC ended up churning out endless dissertations concerned with race-class-gender theory and post-modern or neo-marxist critiques of education.

    They were living on different intellectual planets. To its credit, the state legislature passed legislation allowing the CSUs to award Ed.Ds. UC sneered because they were just Ed.Ds and weren't PhDs. But they acquiesced, believing that their prestige wasn't threatened.

    I expect that the same kind of observations can be made about CJ programs as well. Less prestigious programs might have a lot more relevance for what's happening with real-life LEOs out on the street, while the "better" doctoral programs are more concerned with producing books, papers and research product about stylish new theories that get professors applause from other professors.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  2. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    As I said in my first post, one would have to have amazing research to overcome an unranked doctorate. It appears that Bruce and Heirophant completely overlooked that.

    Now, back to the real world. None of us here are Elon Musk, Neil Armstrong, or former police chiefs of NYPD and LAPD. None of you have even shown real world examples of an accomplished professional in CJ overcoming an unranked PhD and getting a tenure-track position at a top school in the past 20 years (you haven't come up with examples at all). So, how about we focus on the type of job an average, ranking police officer can get rather than someone who is in history books, been an advisor to the President, won a Nobel Prize, started a multi-billion dollar company, etc.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  3. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Tenure is on the decline and it will continue to decline, just as unionized factory jobs have been declining, due to outsourcing and technological advances in industry, as well as in academia. The increase in online education, coupled with an increase in adjunct hiring, is exacerbating the trend to eliminate tenure. What's the percentage of tenured professors today, compared to 30 or 40 years ago? And sanantone, if you don't get tenure (assuming you get passed the dissertation) -- then what?
  4. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    1. The job market for CJ PhDs is fine. People in previous cohorts at my school haven't had problems with finding jobs.

    2. I do not plan on teaching full-time. I probably won't teach at all.

    3. I already have a full-time job.

    4. How is this this even relevant to my post?
  5. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Sanantone, this is not just about you.
  6. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing this is not one of your moments of clarity. In case you do not remember, you responded to my post and asked me personal questions about what I am going to do. But, you are right on one thing. This thread is not about me, so why are you asking about me? As I said, your questions are irrelevant.
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Getting a doctorate just to teach as an adjunct doesn't make financial sense, but it's still very helpful to hold one if one is competing against a crowded field of applicants for such positions.
  8. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Mr. Kettle met Mr. Pot today. Goodness gracious, they are both BLACK!
  9. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    There's nothing good or gracious in your comment.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  10. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Decimon, the analogy of the pot and kettle is very old and is not designed to be gracious. The fact that both a pot and a kettle are made out of black iron is psychologically significant because while the shape of the pot may differ from the shape of the kettle, they both are nonetheless made out of the same substance. They are the same. For example, when John Doe points a finger at Jane Doe, he should remember that four of his fingers are pointing back at himself. Salt can be quite tasty and effective when it is used appropriately and in the right amount. If salt loses its flavor, then of what value is it? Conversely, if too much salt is used, then it reportedly raises blood pressure.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  11. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    There needn't be anything "amazing". It might only be real practical experience in an applied subject. If somebody is being hired to teach school administration at a more practitioner-oriented M.Ed. or Ed.D. program like those more prevalent here in California at CSUs (as opposed to the UCs' PhD programs aimed at churning out researchers), then it probably helps for an applicant to have some real-life experience as a school administrator on their resume, so that they appear to know what they are talking about.

    University rankings aren't the only variable. They needn't even be the most important variable. That's my point and I believe the point Bruce was making as well.
  12. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    I'm curious. Who besides US News' annual graduate school issue ranks university CJ programs? Is there a credible and widely respected university ranking in that subject?
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yeah well, it seems that two of you are in agreement. Sanantone is saying that the top-ranking doctorate is a virtual requirement for a position in top-ranked departments and "aspiring" top-ranked departments, and is not a requirement anywhere else, given a perceived shortage of CJ PhDs. "Top-ranked" implies "research oriented". More clinically-oriented programs are presumably a different matter altogether. Of course, I do not know CJ market, but this rings true. With obvious exception of Elon Musks of the world (most of whom would not be interested in a typical publish-or-perish TT position, anyway. If they teach full time it's in "special" Distinguished Professor of Practice-type positions many schools would love to create for them).
    sanantone likes this.
  14. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    If you have nothing to say about my post, then don't quote it. It's that simple. If you don't want me to answer questions about myself, then don't ask me questions about myself.
  15. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I thought I made it very clear that I was talking about the requirements to get into teaching in a high-ranking graduate program. I don't know how I can make this clearer.

    I am talking about what high-ranking criminal justice/criminology PhD programs expect from applicants. I am not talking about practitioner-oriented doctoral programs at schools that are unranked or lowly-ranked in the field.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  16. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Sanantone, if you don't want to be quoted, then please don't say or writing anything in a public venue. Otherwise, thank you for your participation.
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    You didn't say it rarely happens, you said;

    Not "rarely", "absolutely no chance".

    That's clearly not the case, but nice backpedaling.
  18. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    That is not what I said, but whatever. You're just trolling.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  19. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Nice try taking the sentence out of context. Go back and read the last paragraph. Plus, the "rarely happens" wasn't specifically about University of Maryland.

    Regardless, you have yet to prove otherwise. All you can do is come up with what-ifs.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I don't care enough to do any research, but do you really think that as far as CJ goes, that Bill Bratton's lack of a graduate degree would hinder his getting a faculty job at a major university?

    Off the top of my head, just for the concept in general, there's a local newspaper columnist/talk show host named Howie Carr, who taught in the graduate Journalism program at Boston University with only a Bachelor's degree from UNC-Chapel Hill, and there's also a community activist/former elected official named Mel King who taught at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a Master's degree from Boston State College.

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