Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by eriehiker, Oct 22, 2020.
I came across this interesting project:
I came across the link below on the NextGen website which indicates if you are not affiliated with a sponsoring university, you can still take the degree courses and subsequently be awarded your master's degree by Euclid University.
I believe this U. is mainly located in Bangui, Central African Republic, with some kind of admin. location only in California US. Although (I believe) it has some affiliation or MOU with a legit. Central African Uni. in C.A.R., Euclid U. (Pole Universitaire Euclide) itself is not a recognized University in CAR and acceptance of its degrees has long been problematic (or nonexistent) here in US.
We have several threads at DI which have reached this conclusion, some over the protest of Euclid U. officials. See this link from NextGen U's website:
Other considerations aside, please note that the course appears to be intended for students in developing countries. 70% are from Africa and over 100 countries are represented. I don't think this is fertile hunting territory for free-degree-hunters from developed nations. Nor do I think it should be.
I realize the school (Euclid U.) may have very good intentions but the prevailing opinion here at DI is that those intentions cannot not add up to accreditation suitable for US use. Use of the DI search engine will reveal some juicy arguments.
Euclid is one issue. Another issue is the officiality (or lack thereof) of NextGenU's medical programs. They seem to be pointing to loose associations that may lead nowhere for a student in the end. The American medical education system is so strict that it's highly unlikely any school would just use their system to offer a medical school program regardless of it being free just because that connection may make it very difficult to gain the type of acceptance needed for licensure.
I don't know. Seems like a place with good intentions, but for a program to be valuable that's not enough.
Good summary, I think. Took me many more words to say the same thing.
Absolutely a good summary, at least for students in first world countries. I can see the value in working through such a program if you're from a developing nation and want to help your local area...maybe.
Euclid is an interesting beast. It's an "international treaty" signed by several countries; they claim admin offices in CAR and The Gambia. They did get UNESCO listing as a CAR university, so there's that. It's an interesting beast, though I agree it's perhaps too much for a potential North American student to explain.
They claim that their Preventative Medicine residency is developing a pilot site in South Texas with University of Incarnate Word. Google search confirms that, indeed, UIW is developing a Preventative Medicine residency in San Antonio, it somehow integrates an MPH degree, and it seems some of the same people are involved. Here: https://tigmer.com/preventive-medicine .
If these things are indeed related, that'll confer a lot of legitimacy on NextGenU. Ecpecially if the San Antonio residency will be accredited by ACGME. Still, may not be a practical choice for most, though.
Euclid has a long history at DI. Dr. John Bear once set out to find the North American headquarters and succeded. They were in a nice double-wide mobile home in California. Euclid's DI history includes a record number of "threats of the week" -THREE of them, IIRC. Good post by you, here, Stanislav. https://www.degreeinfo.com/index.php?threads/information-about-euclid-university.22510/page-3#post-230403
Couple by me there, too. Not among my worst, either - at least as I see things. And I was right about Mali. As it turned out, things did get a lot worse in Bamako. Glad I didn't take up teaching English there. Somebody in that thread said there were lots of jobs. Could have been big trouble.
At the end of the day, if you need a binder full of organized documents you carefully gathered to explain how your school is legitimate then you should probably find another option.
I put Euclid along with many other schools of questionable provenance. I don't dedicate brain power to deciphering its legitimacy. If legitimacy is not apparent to me, or the people on this board, it will absolutely not be apparent to someone who doesn't engage in this weird little accreditation hobby we all share.
For schools like this operating in international grey areas that there is no clear answer for one can certainly pay them the money. But then one ought not be shocked if someone turns around one day and says that the degree is bogus. Euclid is weird because for every red flag they send up indicating they may be an Axact type of situation you periodically find some affiliation that makes them seem more legitimate. Normal schools don't have that sort of back and forth, however. YMMV and enter at your own risk.
I hate to bring up MIGS since, seriously, that poor dead horse has been thoroughly flogged. But I don't see the black and white fault in all of that as our own Dr. Levicoff does. I see why people focused on the legitimate looking aspects. I see why people focused on the red flags. I see why, as time went on, those things shifted. I see why international differences and a language barrier interfered with research into it. My approach is not to write off all schools because of this one. Rather, it's to only dedicate about 15 minutes, tops, to considering whether something is legitimate (or legitimate enough, as the case often is) before moving on.
...which seems to be the point, yes. This is an interesting concept - a course provider that is a charity. Their hope is for students to partner with locally-accredited institutions, which would be awarding credits and degrees. Euclid is there to pick up the slack if local option is not available - which, incidentally, is the whole declared point of Euclid. It's hard to tell for sure because track record is thin, but there is evidence Euclid had transitioned from a vanity project of Fr. Laurent and friends into something resembling a real institution. That would not be unprecedented.
Here's the founder of NextGenU: https://www.spph.ubc.ca/person/erica-frank/ . She's a full professor and Canada Research Chair (a very prestigious thing) at the University of British Columbia. NextGenU ran courses it designed at accredited schools (including Uniformed Services University of Health Sciences), and published action research in peer reviewed journals. They try to build a residency program in San Antonio. So yes, this thing is a sincere effort. It may well turn out that Dr. Frank was too ambitious and the thing will collapse - but again, it may not. In the meantime, programs they offer do have value. Is this enough of a reason to go get a Euclid degree? Probably not, but I wouldn't blame someone for doing it. Especially if "you're from a developing nation and want to help your local area".
This is really interesting. Euclid really does have a UN framework/treaty agreeement, but I don't know enough about the UN to know if that has any legal power or force. Why would the UN dedicate time to getting a "treaty" signed among several countries to establish a university for mutual benefit, only for it to be a scam?
Several US states have tried to put Euclid on their lists of unaccredited or unrecognized universities, only to remove them later (perhaps due to the threats of the week mentioned above.) Reading the previous thread I see that Euclid was once run out of a double-wide trailer in California, with that thread starting in 2006 and ending in 2012.
A 2016 thread picks up the story, noting "...UN charters don't accredit universities. These universities have to have authority to operate wherever they are. Degree authority comes from their home jurisdictions rather than the UN."
Okay, as I continue to read, I see "Euclid IS NOT affiliated with the UN. The only thing that they did is to have the agreement signed by the Euclid countries registered at the United Nations: https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/2011/08/20110817%2003-22%20PM/Other%20Documents/COR-Reg-49006-Sr-61352.pdf"
So that answers that. As long as member countries are willing to file a document with the UN it will be listed there, but that means nothing specific about their ability to grant degrees.
As they note, "EUCLID is chartered to confer diplomas, degrees and completion certificates accredited by the ministries of Education of the Participating Parties." So, then we're back to whether the Central African Republic (CAR), where they are headquartered, has accredited or otherwise recognized the school as a degree-granting institution.
They show up in the Unesco portal, under CAR. I seemed to remember them being listed under The Gambia; not currently.
World Higher Education Database (WHED) Portal
I don't think this answers all questions, though. It's a rather mysterious institution, and I would proceed with caution. OTOH, they can't be easily dismissed as a mill.
I never understood what the notion of Euclid being "run from the double-wide in California" were supposed to mean. Presumably this refers to the dwelling of Father Laurent Cleenewerck, who is a Euclid admin and, apparently, co-founder. I don't think equating his place (though he denied he lived in a double-wide) with Euclid place of business is well justified.
Why not? If Fr. Cleenewerck did his admin. work from there, the shoe fits. Did Euclid have any other US premises from which Fr. Cleenewerck might have performed his Euclid administration tasks?
Dr. John Bear drove out there - and he reported the premises (he gave the exact address) to be "really a very nice double-wide." Here's the thread. https://www.degreeinfo.com/index.php?threads/instant-help-needed-re-trinidad-calif.38788/
My take: Fr. Cleenewerk, is real, in every sense. He is a real scholar. But Euclid is problematic for American students. It may or may not be problematic for African students - I'm not qualified to say. And although that doesn't usually stop me, I'll let it do so, this time.
My apologies. The spelling is "Cleenewerck." 10-min timer again.
Maybe because it could rather be one of the "offices in the CAR, Pakistan and Washington, D.C.", or The Gambia, for that matter? I remember glancing on their website around that time, and the more active admin seemed to be a gentleman in Pakistan. That's the thing: it does not look like personal Cleenewerck enterprise, anymore.
Having said that, I have to agree the school is not the safest choice for American students.
Thanks for telling me. I'll be sure not to make it my enterprise any more, either. I appreciate the info.
These are fair points. The convoluted story of Euclid makes it a fun topic of discussion here, but can be detrimental for graduates. For North American students, there's no shortage of less complicated options.
To balance this out, I don't think Axact is a good comparison point. The worst analogy imho is Lomar fantasy passports.
Great point on affiliations. NextGenU is a good example: for Euclid, being involved in a project ran by distinguished faculty from University of British Columbia and University of the Incarnate Word (San Antonio) is a feat. For NextGenU, at least this side of the ocean, Euclid connection detracts more reputation points than it adds.
Interesting updates in V. Rev. Dr. Laurent's Euclid CV. Apparently, he got his 2012 doctorate from St. Gregory Nazianzen re-awarded this year, this time with validations from y Nikola Tesla Union University (Serbian) and Augustine Voloshyn Carpathian University (Ukraine) and as a PhD. He's also working on a PhD in Public Health - through Texila American and UCN.
It's fair to say that, while this may be OK for a professional degree chaser like Fr. Laurent, it's not a uniformly good look for schools involved. His Nazianzen degree was already "validated" through a Guatemala school - but apparently this did not inspire enough confidence even in him (who is on the faculty team of that school). Who can say with confidence he won't feel the need to "re-validate" the thing again in another 8 years, and what does it mean for the rest of the alumni? Also, Texila U. is itself a weird entity. Finally, why not pursue a Euclid doctorate? He'd be better off getting a degree directly from AVCU/ Uzhgorod Theological Academy, which is also a personal vanity school but with current accreditation certificate and ran by a Bishop in good standing (unless you're Russian Orthodox, in which case both UTA and its Rector are schismatics).
And then in their best fashion, this is topped off by a few new peer-reviewed publications, a couple in collaboration with other Euclid-affiliated people. I wonder who paid $775 per paper Article Processing Charges to Hindawi (a low-ranked, but legitimate, Open Access publisher). True roller-coaster, this guy.
Staggering! Not only is there the expense of acquiring exotic degrees (and the work) - but there's the Maintenance of such degrees. They're worse than a Ferrari and a couple of Hollywood ex-wives! (But how would I know?) Indeed, a chilling expose, Stanislav.
"Sorry. My DOC's in the shop --- again. They have to install all-new Validation. The factory stuff is just awful, apparently...."
The chilling part is, his scholarship is not any worse than that of many people with mainstream doctorates. Better than some.
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