NCA Gives Trinity (Newburgh) Candidacy Status

My observation is a simple, or even a simpleminded one. I have known, in my drab, wretched, and circumscribed life:

doctors of philology from Cambridge, Princeton, Fordham, Chicago, UBC etc.;
doctors of theology from Stellenbosch, Chicago, Jagiellonian, Yale;
doctors of modern languages from Zuerich, Harvard, Michigan, Toronto;
doctors of medicine from Natal, Cape Town, De La Salle, and Columbia;
doctors of political science from Moscow, Wayne State, Ohio State, Northwestern and Duke;
doctors of mathematics from Michigan, Stanford, and Penn State.

Far be it from me to say that one field is more rigorous than another, let alone that "my" field demands more of me than other fields,should (still less "in case"!) I ever attain to a doctorate in it.

Now I am off this thread to grub about in the woods. Peace.

 

Portability? Utility?

I'm still new here but these are usually big questions when approaching any degree aren't they? Well since I did some of my undergrad work in London, I found myself intrigued a couple of years back when I saw that TCC was "accredited" by Liverpool (Now that "honor" has been transferred to Christ Church Canterburry College or some such...)

You see over there in the UK most bible colleges are accreditted by another university. Even London Bible College, one of the most prestigious evangelical seminaries in the UK is actually accreditted by Brunel University. So it seemed to me that TCC might be legit - at least in the eyes of the UK.

Well in the past year I found myself interested again in this option, so I called a former instructor of mine, who is currently a principle of a major bible college, and asked about tcc. His statement was that he did not no anything about it personally, but that when he asked around, the staff was very negative about it. (TCC also has a UK division).

So utility it seems is out - at least in the UK...and as Bill has noted portability is probably out as well....

brad

 

another quick though...

Another quick thought about utility and portability...

By raising these questions, I by no means am trying to say that they are the most important ones...they are simply the ones that are normally brought forth when discussing the ultimate "value" of a degree.

Another valuable question is whether the work involved in attaining the creditial is adequate preparation and training for what you intend to do with it...and unfortunately RA status does not assure of this....

To be frank, many of the classes that I took at my non-accreditted bible college in London, were much more demanding than those that I took at DBU or at SWBTS (check signature). In fact I had one class at seminary were the professor simply read the textbook (that was written by the dept. head) aloud in class. And if he repeated a sentence from the book you knew it would be a true false question on the next test. So while I recognize the value that some teachers have to offer at that level, I also recognize that not all RA programs ensure the quality of what you are receiving.

In fact some of my greatest learning experiences came doing research for papers (this started in London, and continued to be a focus of mine as I entered a MA(th) which required an additional research paper for each course).

I thank Bill, Cory, and Alan and others here who have made the South African option known...I had given up on doing a traditional masters or doc, and did not have the money to pursue the UK research alternatives. I still do not know what utility these degrees will offer me, but I feel good about following a course that is not only legit, but also challenges me to discover truth, rather than spoon feeding me someone else's.

brad

 

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Peace to you too my fav Unk. Sorry if I got out of control. I wasted, I guess, hours here, when I should instead have been tearing your pal Pieper's Christology apart in chap six of my paper

As I've said, my thesis in the dissertation may not be correct, though I think it is . But, if I can be wrong in it, then I guess I can admit to some possible error in this thread too.

And, I now admit that possibility.

Your friend,

 

ok, always one to be enlightened, can you folks explain to me the difference in a Theology degree versus the DMin (is that the correct abbreviation?). I am trully impressed by anyone who undertakes these fields because of the altruistic nature of the study.

Also, Southern Chrisitian University has several DL programs. I am not qualified to offer anything other than the links. Look under the Doctor of Ministry program in Alabama.

http://www.electroniccampus.org/student/scripts/search/quickpsearch.asp?Term=16&TermName=Fall+2002

Now on to my two cents. I believe that any theological or philosphical degree path, regardless of hours in the program, is more difficult than those paths that have concrete learning or research ends (sorry Uncle Janko). While you folks are discussing the merits of various programs I think your respective fields merit consideration as being more difficult than PHDs in other fields. (good topic to discuss in another thread) Given the objective of a PHD(or equivalent) program to provide new or relevant additions to a body of knowledge, the theological field certainly would be one of the more difficult areas since the areas of study are older than most of the technological fields many of us pursue today and have been examined for centuries.

Also, the language used and the manner of debate is quite good. Sure beats some of the other threads.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: For Bill Grover

Probably rougher being a Philistine in the land of the Pharisees.

 

I would guess that theological degrees are taught on as concrete a basis as any other field.

I am sure the days are not spent contemplating the meaning of life and developing original theories. It is read a book, digest it, expel it - just like any other academic program.

 

I don't think the Philistines and Pharisees had to worry about each other. According to my encyclopedia, the Philistines ceased to exist as a group after the time of the Assyrians (7th century BC?). The Pharisees arose in 3rd century BC.

Perhaps the biblical scholars can clarify?

 

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Dennis

May I qualify a bit?

It is regular done and required that theories be tested in Theological grad studies. Theories are tested by exegetics and systematics. This is done both in evangelical and more liberal Theological education. Sometimes these theories tested in Theological doc research are very original indeed . Consider the example of Roy W. Hoover:

In 1968 Hoover was awarded the ThD from Harvard. His dissertation was based on the meaning of one, single Greek word used only once in the NT (in the substantive form) only by St. Paul and only in ,

Philippians 2:6:


'harpagmos.'


Now indeed that word is much studied and the literature on that one word is exhaustive and the thought and the argument on the verse is found and expressed in a thousand volumes written over hundreds of years .

But Hoover had a NEW idea and a NEW approach to the issue. He decided to study the word philologically and formed by that study a thesis that when that noun in non Biblical Greek literature (as in Heliodorus, Plutarch, Josephus, Cyril of Alexandria, and Eusebius, read, of course, in the Greek) is used as a predicate accusative occuring with certain verbs as egesato (sorry to be technical), that the meaning is not "grasp at" at all (in the sense of trying to get), but the meaning is rather "not take advantage of." This research never has been philologically over turned! It is very valuable to understanding trinal relationships and the incarnation which often are the subjects of evangelical studies.

This one example of Hoover's creativity and novelty can be replicated time and time over in Theological grad work. This is the REAL stuff, and this is why I get bent out of shape by the less than real stuff which suggests 50 hours a doc in Theology makes!

Dennis, if one takes a just single course in Greek exegetics or in systematics taught by a competent prof, one regularly is forced to theorizing about the meanings and implications of the particular pieces of that massively broad and fantastically deep discipline of Theology. Frequently original theories are developed in such studies and I could spend hours relating these.

Good "luck" with your own studies ; I happily will then call you "Dr."

 

Are we to believe this would lessen the risk?

 

Bill Grover wrote this:

I don't care that a PhD in History in Harvard or wherever might be only 60 units + dissertation. There is IMO more needed to know Theology genuinely at a doc level...

Yet somehow the Harvard historians do manage to muddle along, depite their manifest intellectual inferiority.

I was just trying to inject a comment relevant to this thread's original topic.

Despite my pitiful onetime hope that DL might have given me the opportunity to talk to educated people about religion, I wouldn't presume to rise above my station.

I'd be crushed like a bug.

When the elephants are out on the floor dancing, I think that I'll head for the bar and order another drink...

 

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That is pitiful alright!

Just tears a guy up, sniff.

They're just stuffshirt meanies.

Why not visit "me agains" religion discussion site [which is not just a bunch of meatheaded evangelicals talking over your head and paying you not the attention you deserve] , Theology Review?

Tell Dave , the RC, I recommended you to his gentle care.

 

I don't think that other disciplines are inferior to theology, but having looked around the field, I will say that I think theology is a much broader subject than most. It requires interdisciplinary preparation taking considerable time. This is not true of many other more narrowly focused disciplines. I happen to think highly of the field of history, but the amount of time required to reach the history PhD is usually considerably less than the time is takes to reach the (MDiv/ThM based) theology PhD.

 

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Agreed. Neither theology nor theologians are "superior" in the sense of "better." What I'm saying is that "more" is required to get an RA doc in Theology from an evangelical RA school because one is expected to know and do more.

Look at the new ThD at The Masters Seminary:

Just to get in requires a four year ThM, Hebrew, Greek, German, research thesis, passing five four hour exams in OT, NT, Theology, Church History, General Bible ... just to get in mind you!

Lots of folks finish a MA/PhD in four years , the time it takes just to do just a 120+ unit ThM! Who's fooling whom here with the TTS 50 hour DA?

To finish the ThD at Masters requires three more years of residential study plus a fourth language.

Then , more exams.

Then a 250-400 word dissertation is expected to take another two years I suppose!

Is this overdoing it? Maybe so. I'm thankful at 63 that I don't have to learn German and French and go stay in Calif for three years. If I were 40 maybe I'd do it if I could quit work!

But there it is. If someone knows of a harder or longer PhD, then I'd like to see it.

 

Wow, a 250-400 word dissertation isn't bad at all. But would that take two years?

 

My application is already in the mail.

 

Awright, I'm back since you kids couldn't behave. Longer and harder??? Keep it clean, buddy, this is a family show. Two years for 400 words? With my Arthur the Lithuanian, if it had to be handwritten, I'd say two years is about right.

Goodnight, Gracie.