NCA Gives Trinity (Newburgh) Candidacy Status

Regarding Trinity (Newburgh)

I am not against distance learning, even at the doctoral level. I am not against schools less rigorous than others receiving accreditation, as long as they meet a certain standard. I am against deceit.

I am disappointed that NCA did not consider integrity to be as important as a physical plant, funds, adequate faculty-student ratio, library holding, etc. Trinity has a long pattern of deceiving their students into thinking that they were accredited when they were anything but.

 

Minor point of correction: Thomas Edison State College and Excelsior College are accredited by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education (MSACHE); the New England Association of Schools & Colleges (NEASC) accredits Charter Oak State College.

 

Yes you are correct and thanks.

Ike

 

Hi Ike,

For the record AMU did submit an application to SACS:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990428032432/www.amunet.edu/col9801.html

AMU claimed to have met most of the SACS requirements:

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=32091#post32091

 

First the prerequisite is a 32 unit MA , accredited or not.....Only an additional 50 units is required. This totals only 88 units!

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rather: 82 units. Obviously, math is not my forte, but ummm, let's see:

As per DTS ('91 Catalogue) and TTS 03 catalogues:

DTS ThM=120 units.

TTS DA=82 units.

DTS ThM= 28 units MORE than TTS DOC?

Yes, that's right.

 

Re: Regarding Trinity (Newburgh)

I've long been a critic of Trinity C&S. But my misgivings have always been more with their ethics than with their academics.

I guess that Trinity's application kind of put the NCA in an uncomfortable position.

Trinity could swear to NCA on a stack of the Bibles they keep handy that they had severed all of their ties to Masters seminary. Though conceivably NCA might have suspected otherwise, the accreditor couldn't very well withhold candidacy on the basis of suspicions alone.

Trinity's "Liverpool accreditation" was clearly misleading, but the fact remains that some Britons do use the word 'accreditation' far more loosely than Americans do. So Trinity could tell NCA that it was all a well-intended misunderstanding and that it won't happen again. It's hard to see NCA refusing candidacy for that.

Then, to top it off, factor in that influential theological bigshot that kind of dominates Trinity and the results of all those full-page ads in Christianity Today, and any critical comment on Trinity's application would probably be buried in a tide of testimonials from evangelical clergymen. (And for some reason, clergymen are widely assumed to be authorities on ethics.)

If Trinity seemed to the NCA inspectors to be a credible institution with a good shot of at least minimally meeting their accreditation standards, it would have been difficult to reject them without good cause.

As for myself, I've demanded repeatedly to know why if Trinity was as good as Liverpool proclaimed they were, why Trinity didn't stop farting around and seriously seek real recognized accreditation. So now that they are doing precisely what I insisted that they do, I can't very well beat them up.

On one hand, I'm still troubled by misgivings. But on the other hand, I'm very happy to see Trinity apparently doing the right thing and moving in the right direction. Perhaps they will succeed in cleaning up their act and evolve (sorry) into a valuable DL resource for those with a taste for evangelical theology (99% of Degreeinfo participants, apparently).

 

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oopsie, again: the DTS ThM actually is 128 units not 120! So, the dif between the ThM and the DA is a whopping 46 units?????????????????????????


BUT, lookie at what dumb old Bill has done! He has dared to suggest that a "lower" Dallas ThM, not even claimed to be a teaching degree, (using DTS as I did not go there), actually could prepare one better to know Bible/Theology in order to teach it than does the TTS DOCTOR of Arts which is specifically intended do so.

But dumb old Bill has forgotten the piles and piles and piles of ministry courses in the DTS ThM which reduce to an insignificant number those ThM courses in Bib/Theo...or has he??????????

Actually, look the quantity and content of the DTS ThM BIBLE/THEO ONLY courses and compare that with the TTS program.


REQUIRED DTS courses in the ***128 unit*** ThM '91) :

NT Introduction; Greek Grammar and Syntax; Hermeneutics; Prologema and Bibliology; OT Introduction; Exegetical Method in Ephesians; OT History 1; Trinitarianism; Elements of Hebrew 1; Exegesis of 1 Corinthians; OT History 2 and Poetry;Angeology and Anthropology; Ancient and Medeival Church; Elements of Hebrew 2;Soteriology; Reformation and Post Reformation Church; Intro to Hebrew Exegesis; Pre Ex and Ex Prophets; Sanctification and Ecclesiology; Church in America; Prin of Hebrew Exegesis; Exegesis of Romans; Post Ex Prophets and the Gospels; Acts and General Epistles; Pauline Epistles and Revelation;Eschatology . The student may in ADDITION choose to take 20 more units in Bib/Theo in electives.

Therefore, IMO, the ThM at DTS requires MORE coursework in Bib/Theo than does the DA at TTS.

Of course, additionally, the DTS ThMMERs take required practics such as homiletics, Christian Ed, mission, counseling, pastoral ministry, spiritual life, administration, and evangelism.

Oh, those poor DTS ThMMErs who struggled through that 128 unit rigor now are soon to be shown up by the TTS grads and their much more substantial 88 unit DA.......haw haw haw.

 

For Bill Grover

Compelling points, indeed.

 

The Amator Exclusus speaks for the honor of his Ferne Geliebte (DA)

Bill Grover:

My pernt wuz that the TTS DA is not commensurate with a real DA! If you go to any of the university websites I listed, or others which offer a real DA, you will see that it is a research degree with an orientation to pedagogy. It is not the same as what TTS calls a DA.

And whether or not a real DA would be acceptable at almighty Dallas I have no idea. Dallas Seminary is not the only lodestar of rigor--nor number of hours nor presence of Biblical languages the only quantitative indices of rigor--in the big wide world. You are a bit stuck, comrade, on extolling the Dallas ThM to the exclusion of 'most ever'thing else. I have no interest in criticising or extolling Dallas, BTW. I'm sure it's a fine place.

If TNU dropped the DA, they just did so. I do not know that that is the case. however. And, yes, I would believe that a person possessing a DA from--
Idaho State
George Mason
Clark Atlanta
U. of Miami
U. of Illinois at Chicago
Ball State
U. of North Dakota
or the other current/former RA offerers of this degree--
would be quite competent to teach in college or (mutatis mutandis, given subject matter) seminary.

Although the orientation of the DA is toward undergraduate teaching, the advance upward from undergrad to seminary is frankly not much or nonexistent compared to the advance upward (in rigor) from undergrad to grad. I think a DA could easily handle teaching on the level of the average seminary MDiv. Maybe not at Olympian Dallas, but hey, we cain't all be pope.

Frankly, I think we are all making a big mistake IF we see TTS as paradigmatic of much of anything. Just because they got candidacy doesn't make them "typical RA"--it's candidacy only at this point, after all. Just because they did and do corrupt stuff as an unaccredited seminary doesn't make them "typical unaccredited"--whatever that is. And just because they "demoted" (???) their doctorate to a DA for whatever strategic reasons they did so, does not make their DA conventional according to the patterns set forth by the Carnegie people, the NDAA, or the various universities which still offer the Doctor of Arts degree.

If you use TTS as a stick with which to beat the Doctor of Arts degree in general (as opposed to TTS' own so-called DA), you do an injustice. If you want to knock the Doctor of Arts, go do my extent of research on it and then launch a debate on its comparative merits or demerits vis-a-vis the PhD or ThD or other academic doctorates. Surely it has both merits and demerits. But TTS is a cracked and crazed lens through which to view the issue.

Now go and sin no more. (If Russell can pull this off, you can too.)

Janko l'implacable

 

Re: For Bill Grover

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Thanks. I cannot get my numbers consistent. So , one more time:

DTS standard MASTERS of theology degree= 128 units.
TTS DOCTOR of arts in Theology degree= - 82 units.
______________
46 units dif

ummmmmmmm.....where's the rigor?


BTW, neither do I like MA to PhD research degrees in Theology. The MA IMO is insufficient preparation in many cases. But then, I'm just narrow minded and boorish , I know!

 

Re: Re: For Bill Grover

After umpteen postings on the topic (covering months!), one begins to think that Bill's fixation on TTS is an incurable disease! Surely it can't be ONLY a fear that some poor church in some godforsaken town in Southern North Dakota will be pastored by an unworthiily "doctorized" TTS grad. Maybe, it is more personal. I humbly offer the following hypothesis - though someone more gifted than I will have to suggest the cure.

Bill, are you suffering recurring nightmares something like the following? Imagine Dr. Bill Grover (ThD, Unizul; ThM, Western Conservative Baptist Seminary; MDiv, Equivalency Western CB Seminary; Oregon Handicapped Learner Teaching Credential; 1/2 EdD coursework, Oregon State University; [1979]...Calif. Standard Secondary Teaching Credential in English , University of San Diego [1969]...public school teacher 1969-present...MA , in Theology, Point Loma Nazarene University [1968]...ThB in NT Greek , Linda Vista Baptist Seminary [1966-UA]...BA in Bible , Linda Vista Baptist Bible College [1964-UA]. is invited to give a lecture to some theological guild (perhaps a lecture on "Leonides, Harnack, and the Hypostatic Union" to quote a favorite of mine ).

To Bill's horror, the preceding speaker is Dr. Billy Bob Johnson (BA, TTS, M.A, TTS, and D.A.,TTS) who did his doctoral research on "Methods of Teaching Six Day Creationism to Fundamentalist Christian School Students." To add to the horror of this nightmare, upon introducing Dr. Grover, the (obviously, poorly informed) emcee says, "Did you really say you got your doctorate in ZULULAND???????????????????"

Isn't it rough being a Pharisee in the land of the Philistines?

But life goes on.

John

 

For some unknown reason I knew this thread would evoke myriad emotions.

Bill Grover: Where is the rigor? And what about those credit hours compared to DTS. 120-81. No, 126-82. Sorry, 128-82.

Janko: Corruption, I say, corruption!

Bill Dayson: I can't fault Trinity for pursuing RA, but I have misgivings.

Ike: Today Trinity, tomorrow St. Regis.

John Bear: Liverpool is now RA by TTS.

Alan: NCA is [possibly] slipping.

North: I agree with Russell.

Looks like North is the only one with a clear perception on this issue.

 

Re: For the honor of the Ferne Geliebte (DA)

 

Re: Re: Re: For Bill Grover

 

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Yalmed

If I misunderstood your post and should not have seen there any intent to hurt feelings, then it's my fault and I'm sorry.

 

OK, then, quit citing TTS MA+DA totals as a shot at the real DA degree! No, I don't know of a theology DA. You will note that I spoke in general terms of the rigor and requirements of real DA programs in other fields and suggested reasoning by analogy to support my speculation (yes I know when I'm speculating) that a DA holder from CAU, ISU, UND,etc., etc., would be competent to teach on the seminary level should a seminary be interested in hiring a prof to teach, say, foreign languages (CAU) or church history (ISU, UND) based on a secular-university credential. I am using what I know of DA programs to make this speculation. I am not using TTS as a model or basis for any bleeping thing other than candidacy for accreditation not being a cure-all for corruption.

I only wanted to address the distinction between a Trinity "DA" and real DA degrees from accredited universities. If anyone wants to keep citing the Trinity DA as a straw man, go ahead. I wish you well. I just don't care about this wretched school as much as some of you. If TTS shapes up, fine. If they don't, RA is just one more lie. I never got my arse caught in TTS' gears. Sorry. That's all I have to say on this.

Have a nice day.

 

Oh. One other thing. The notion that theology is more rigorous than all other disciplines is prideful and silly. If anyone thinks this, cut it out.

One other other thing. Thanks Bill Dayson for the fresh air. One gets a bit weary of eevangelicals' assumption that everybody in the universe, or even just the degreeinfo microcosm, is in on their in-jokes and submerged in their subculture, academic or otherwise.

 

Bill Grover, you shifted your ground from the issue of the DA equipping to teach at a seminary to equipping to teach "Bib/Theo" at a seminary. You also continue to cite TTS credit hour totals as paradigmatic for the content and rigor of the DA at other schools in other fields.

I greatly admire your scholarship and respect you as a friend. I do not believe that you are making sense on this. You can repeat yourself endlessly (a common degreeinfo stunt when someone disagrees) as though repetition were probative. I have said what I have to say and will finish this post, shut up, and get off this thread. I am unwilling to play an endless is too/is not game, and you are smarter and more of a gentleman than to do that. If you think I'm wrong on this that's OK with me. My thinking you are wrong on this particular issue (worth of TTS DA and worth of DA in general) does not diminish my regard for you in the least.

Go reread your own posts. A master exegete such as yourself can find what I disagreed with easily enough, since you wrote it. Accept or reject my disagreement as you see fit. My poor vision and lack of dexterity make it more of a chore than it's worth to cut and paste quotes from your earlier posts to illustrate to you a point from your own posts. Should you decide I was right, fine. Change your mind, then. Should you decide I am still wrong, OK. It harms me none, and I am beyond help.

I guess great scholars have to be perfectly right on everything. That burden is hard for a lowbrow like the old Carpathian to understand or appreciate. Me, I'm happy if I can find the crapper in the middle of the night.

God's peace, as the Apostolic Lutherans like to say.

Your friend and admirer,
Janko