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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Certainly, by forming an Academic Supervisory Committee with Spanish-speaking people and doing your work in Spanish.

    It is one of the goals of MIGS (as related to me by the President, Armando Arias) to partner programs with faculty members from other Mexican universities to improve the qualifications of some of their members. Obviously, this would be done in Spanish with Spanish-speaking supervisors.

    Rich Douglas
     
  2. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    If there are any relevant facts or research findings that would support MIGS' academic credibility, by all means post them. I have been asking for more information on this matter for months.

    Do MIGS' academic and institutional deficiencies run deeper than merely operating doctoral programs without short residencies?

    If MIGS has a history of avoiding American accreditation requirements and seeking more compliant standards abroad, doesn't that create a responsibility for MIGS to demonstrate that essential standards of academic quality have not been compromised as well?

    Then how in the world can you announce that MIGS is academically equivalent to an American university?

    Rich, you have stated in the past that you have had personal meetings with MIGS' president. Why don't you just ask him, and report his answer? Or why not ask MIGS to elaborate on their website? It would remove a cloud from above your future Ph.D., and it would enhance MIGS' own credibility and probably aid them in attracting students and placing graduates. I would think that they would be happy to provide this information. At least assuming that it is not embarrassing.

    But at this point, all we can see is Nuevo Leon approving CEU's proposed doctoral criteria, some waving of hands, and suddenly MIGS is teaching those programs from the United States and claiming academic parity with American universities. We don't even know who has reponsibility for overseeing MIGS, let alone how they exercised it.

    "Widespread acceptance" is not the issue here, academic credibility is. It is possible to be both widely accepted and academically substandard. If an academically substandard program has managed to find some loophole or back door to "widespread acceptance", then that is definitely something worth talking about.

    You are the one asserting that MIGS is the academic equal of American universities, despite their avoidance of regional accreditation and their attempts to find an overseas accreditation haven more to their liking. So the burden of proof is on you to reassure us that only inessentials have been compromised and that essential academic quality remains intact.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Funny. I have no such burden because I have no such agenda. I don't care what you think, truly.

    Rich Douglas
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Tom:

    It's my understanding that research-based dissertations are indeed far more lengthy than those in coursework-based programs like those found in the U.S. True? What is the general expectation regarding length? I've read where the typical Australian dissertation in a research-based program is 100,000 words. Is this because you conduct a wide scope of research covering more than just the central dissertation theme, which is then included in the dissertation? Will you have to complete a similarly designed dissertation at Potch? I'd love to know what it is going to look like for you, and if that is typical of other British-style doctoral programs.

    Rich
     
  5. DWCox

    DWCox member

    To ask whether or not MIGS has undergone any external inspection is no different than asking whether or not Unisa or any other foreign (GAAP accredited) university has actually undergone any external quality control -- investigation/inspection.

    MIGS is GAAP accredited like it or not!!!

    Rich is right the facts are the facts so please move on to another topic or start attacking all other foreign universities accredited by the same standard.

    Regards, Wes
     
  6. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Excellent questions, Rich -- I wish I had some excellent answers to go with them, but I'll do what I can:

    - The average length of a British or South African dissertation tends to run between 60,000 and 90,000 words.

    - The average length of an Australian dissertation tends to run between 85,000 and 120,000 words. I have seen a few dissertations that seem shorter to me -- for example, a process theologian named Tony Kelly did a Ph.D. in philosophy through Flinders and his dissertation as presented to me seems to run to a mere 100 pages or so -- but as a general rule, I think the word count tends to be extremely high.

    - As for what makes up the bulk: from what I've been told, it's the fact that Australian research students are pretty much required to "eat" an entire area of study and cite any and all relevant sources. Which means that if I were to do an Australian dissertation on Max Kadushin, I would just about have to go back to his 10th grade book report on Don Quixote. This is why Australian dissertations actually tend to be a little more specific than U.S. dissertations -- if I tried to do a master's thesis called "Your Brother's Blood: An Interdisciplinary Commentary on Genesis 4:1-16" without further specifying my source material, I imagine...well, I imagine it would literally be impossible to write, by Australian standards, since there is no way to satisfactorily address the relevant three millennia of source material. So I would end up with "Your Brother's Blood: An Interdisciplinary Commentary on Genesis 4:1-16, Focusing Primarily on the Commentaries of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and Pre-7th Century Rabbinical Traditions, With Hebrew Exegesis." And that would be a good 200 pages or so itself.

    Peace,


    ------------------
    Tom Head
    www.tomhead.net
     
  7. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Okay let's discuss it from the point of view of "accreditation" outside the USA. I would guess that in most countries someone with a background in mail fraud would not be allowed to start up a distance learning school in that country. I would venture to guess that CEU did zero background check on who it was they were getting in bed with. (shame on CEU)

    Regarding the point about the "facts are the facts so please move on to another topic". I believe this is unfair because I thought Bill was just responding to a question with some facts. (Perhaps I've misunderstood your point and you believe that Bill's statements were not factual?)
     
  8. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member

    Dear Bill,

    Thank you very much for your response.

    Since I was the one who started discussions about possible residencies in Mexico, your lines refer to me. I appreciate your opinion.

    I think I need to paraphrase my position. I have my opinion about MIGS and CEU, but I am also interested in what Mexicans think of them. As I said before, I am not fond of a foreign distance mode wing operated by foreigners, though this is starting to change. Putting academic standards and quality assurance aside, Mexicans (and by extension all Latin Americans like myself) will think better of CEU and MIGS if they offer short residencies in Mexico. I think that I don't need to explain extensively why this is so, and this is not related with Americans bringing dollars in; we would welcome Chinese people to experience a little bit of our residential educational system. Thus, you can see that an Internet wing is not certainly the "real animal".

    To put an analogy to what I am saying: if ABC U, our worst residential university (not distance-only university) in Latin America starts to offer Internet-only distance degrees, it is even worse. I think that residential universities with distance learning wings have to offer students the possibility to study residentially on campus. If this is not the case, they are clearly differentiating and discrimininating its distance students.

    Take care,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye
    [email protected]
     
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    While the 100% distance model is not uncommon outside the U.S., I, too, would like to see on-campus residencies in Monterrey. I think they would blow away the whole "tail wagging dog" discussion regarding MIGS and the CEU. But so would greater, visible involvement in the MIGS program by CEU faculty and staff.

    Rich Douglsa
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Hi, Karlos. While my remarks weren't addressed at anything that you had said, it is always a pleasure to discuss interesting issues with you.

    As am I. There are any number of questions about Mexican perceptions. For example, are these kind of foreign collaborative relationships common in Mexico, or is this unique? Would the average informed Mexican consider this CEU/MIGS thing routine or weird?

    To me that isn't really the problem, so long as the foreign collaborative relationship is credible. In the UK, many universities enter into these kind of foreign relationships. But the British have recognized the possibility for abuse that is inherent in them and their QAA monitors them pretty heavily, holding quality audits including foreign site visits.

    Personally, I find it incomprehensible and bizarre that a school that would be considered academically substandard if it offered its own degrees, can suddenly become RA-quality through nothing more than putting another school's name on its diplomas. There must be something more to academic quality than that.

    Some of the regional accreditors in the United States seem to hold a similar opinion. I think that I side with MIGS/CEU on that issue, since I don't think that residencies are always necessary. If they are necessary in a particular academic program, to accomodate labs or practicals, then they should last for whatever length of time meets those needs. But if the on-campus periods are just symbolic, then they shouldn't be required, particularly if they create a travel hardship for remote students.

    But yes, in this case it would contribute to credibility I guess, by involving CEU more in the actual education process.

    While I don't think that's absolutely necessary, I do think that it is clearly desirable. While it would not replace the need to effectively monitor the quality of the distance education activity, it would add to perceived credibility and would offer students another very valuable option. And as you say, it would reduce the perception that the DL students are inferior in some way. If it were optional and not mandatory (except where demanded by the academic needs of the program itself), it would be a very positive step in my opinion.
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I agree 100% with Bill on this. It is my opinion there needs to be a lot more collabortion and synergy betwee MIGS and CEU. (I've also said the same on this board.)

    I, too, straddle the fence regarding residencies. I've always felt that good distance education can take place without formal campus residency, and that residency can take many different forms. When I was a Union learner, I relished the opportunity to get together with my peers and the faculty at seminars, and with my peers during peer days. Seminars, Entry Colloquia, and Peer Days took place all over the world.

    Can a doctoral program be 100% non-residential, to the point where students have no face-to-face interaction with peers and faculty? Sure. But that doesn't add to the credibility of a situation that needs some seriously good PR.

    Rich Douglas
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My keyboard sucks. Sorry. (Like every good golfer, blame the equipment.)

    Another positive outcome from establishing residency opportunities in Monterrey would be to help answer the question about how involved the CEU is--or wants to be--in MIGS.


    Rich Douglas
     
  13. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    This is the game that is being played by the MIGS owners and current students, IMHO. They are "pretending" that GAAP will give the MIGS diploma full RA value/respect by trying to blur the line between GAAP and a quality education. These are clearly two different things but the MIGS owners and students are apparently hoping that GAAP will be enough.

    Quality assurance is irrelevant, put the fox (who has a long history of feasting on hens) in charge of the hen house. Ignore the fact that the fox is advertising fried chicken along with eggs in the Fox Tribune. Everything is fine because the farmer is accredited according to GAAP. We are supposed to assume that the farmer will ask the fox how everything is going every once in awhile. Quality assurance is irrelevant and need not be discussed because they have GAAP. (Whether we like it or not. [​IMG])
     
  14. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member


    Hi, Rich!

    Yes, I agree with you. This is one way that the credibitily of MIGS could grow.

    Best,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye
    [email protected]
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    MIGS, nor the CEU, is ultimately responsible for quality control in this issue. That belongs to the governmental authorities, as it does with all Mexican universities. Take it up with them.

    Rich Douglas
     
  16. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member

    Originally posted by Bill Dayson:

    >Hi, Karlos. While my remarks weren't >addressed at anything you had said, it is >always a pleasure to discuss interesting >issues with you.

    Many thanks, Bill! I always enjoy your comments as well. You seem to discuss issues with a unique perspective and a solid background that make your positions very credible.

    quote: I think I need to paraphrase my position. I have my opinion about MIGS and CEU, but I am also interested in what Mexicans think of them.

    >As am I. There are any number of questions >about Mexican perceptions. For example, are >these kind of foreign collaborative >relationships common in Mexico, or is this >unique?

    This is an interesting question. There are some collaborations, but they apply to residential universities, so the academic study takes place in Mexico and not in another country or in cyberspace. These foreign universities (or domestic universities with collaboration from) are fully registered in Mexico.

    > Would the average informed Mexican consider this CEU/MIGS thing routine or >weird?

    I remember that Aaron Rivacoba Bohorquez, who is a native Mexican, saw an ad of MIGS adverstising for Americans. He thought of this as weird.

    At any rate, if MIGS had administrative offices in Mexico, had residencies in Mexico, and had the graduation ceremony in Mexico, I think that Mexicans would feel more confortable with MIGS. Again, I would like to put an analogy to this. We know that COSC, for example, does not offer a doctorate. Let's say that COSC decides to open a distance learning wing with administratives offices in Spain and decides to offer distance learning doctorates in Spanish only. Would you, Bill, as an American, feel comfortable with COSC? I don't think so. Yes, we know that MIGS is starting to change this, so when that happens, MIGS will be perceived better in the eyes of Mexicans, and hopefully in the eyes of all of us.

    quote:As I said before, I am not fond of a foreign distance mode wing operated by foreigners, though this is starting to change.

    >To me that isn't really the problem, so long> as the foreign collaborative >relationship is credible.

    I didn't want to discuss this point in depth, but now that you are mentioning it, well....

    The problem is, who are receiving the economic benifits of these collaborations? Are the residential CEU students in Mexico benefiting from this? Are they getting a better cafeteria or a better library or something? Are the teachers at CEU getting a better payment or any other form of incentive?

    > In the UK, many universities enter into >these kind of foreign relationships. But the> British have recognized the possibility >for abuse that is inherent in them and their> QAA monitors them pretty heavily, >holding quality audits including foreign >site visits.

    I agree with you. The only thing I can tell you is that, for Mexicans, it is easier to monitor foreign residential universities operating in Mexico. These Internet wings are different, and it could be the case, and I am guessing here, that Mexicans don't have a clear or definite law in this regard.

    >Personally, I find it incomprehensible and >bizarre that a school that would be >considered academically substandard if it >offered its own degrees, can suddenly become> RA-quality through nothing more than >putting another school's name on its >diplomas. There must be something more to >academic quality than that.

    Again, these Intenet-only wings are difficult to figure out as it pertains to quality assurance, at least in some countries. I bet that if MIGS were a residential university, quality assurance would be easier to monitor.

    quote: Putting academic standards and quality assurance aside, Mexicans (and by extension all Latin Americans like myself) will think better of CEU and MIGS if they offer short residencies in Mexico. I think that I don't need to explain extensively why this is so, and this is not related with Americans bringing dollars in; we would welcome Chinese people to experience a little bit of our residential educational system. Thus, you can see that an Internet wing is not certainly the "real animal".

    >Some of the regional accreditors in the >United States seem to hold a similar >opinion. I think that I side with MIGS/CEU >on that issue, since I don't think that >residencies are always necessary.

    Of course, Bill, these residencies shouldn't be required. They ought to be optional.

    > If they >are necessary in a particular >academic >program, to accomodate labs or >practicals, >then they should last for >whatever length of> time meets those needs. >But if the >on-campus periods are just >symbolic, then >they shouldn't be required, >particularly if >they create a travel >hardship for remote >students.

    My position for this point is this: if a student can only afford one weekend residentially, let him have a weekend; if a student can afford a week, let her have a week; if a student can afford a semester, let him have a semester; if a student can afford a year, let her have a year, etc. Finally, if a student can afford to go on campus to the graduation ceremony along with all internal students, by all means, he or she should be allowed to go. Remember that this not only apply to MIGS but to all residential universities with distance learning wings. One example that I love is that of Indiana University; you are welcome to study on campus for the time you can afford.

    >But yes, in this case it would contribute to> credibility I guess, by involving CEU >more in the actual education process.

    Agreed!

    quote: To put an analogy to what I am saying: if ABC U, our worst residential university (not distance-only university) in Latin America starts to offer Internet-only distance degrees, it is even worse. I think that residential universities with distance learning wings have to offer students the possibility to study residentially on campus. If this is not the case, they are clearly differentiating and discrimininating its distance students.

    >While I don't think that's absolutely >necessary, I do think that it is clearly >desirable.

    That was my point.

    > While it would not replace the need to >effectively monitor the quality of the >distance education activity, it would add to> perceived credibility and would offer >students another very valuable option. And >as you say, it would reduce the perception >that the DL students are inferior in some >way. If it were optional and not mandatory >(except where demanded by the academic needs> of the program itself), it would be a >very positive step in my opinion.

    I agree with you, Bill!

    Thank you for your attention.

    Sincerely yours,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye
    [email protected]
     
  17. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    FWIW, even in the APA there is a bifurcation in the study of aging. The academicians gravitate toward Division 20 whereas the applied types gravitate toward Division 12 Section 2. If your interest is purely academic I don't think it makes much difference whether you earn the degree through a department of psychology v. gerontology. If, on the other hand, you want to do applied work I suggest you matriculate in an APA approved program in either clinical or counseling psychology. The counseling psych program at Ball State has a great subspecialty in geropsychology and the contact person used to by a woman by the name of Royda Crouse.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm very sorry for not responding to this before now, but I didn't have the complete picture. I will refer you to two sources of information that will, hopefully, help to clarify this issue.

    First, the key to getting a degree from a Mexican university recognized in the United States is the "certificado de estudios" (certificate of study) issued by the Secretary of Education in the state where the school is licensed. This is not the same as state approval in the U.S. Schools so recognized are considered part of the country's educational system, and their degrees are, therefore, considered comparable. It is the highest authority defining the educational system, and it is the one educators, evaluators, etc. look to when examining the degree and issuing school. I was referred to www.utexas.edu/international/mexico to get this information. The web page was authored by the same person who wrote AACRAO's World Education Series section on Mexico. The certificate is what evaluators will look for when determining whether or not the degree is legitimate and equivalent. Having the diploma from the school is not enough (except, I understand, with autonomous universities). In the case of the CEU, the Secretary of Education in Nuevo Leon would have to issue the "doctorado."

    Second, the CEU has already received approval for the Ph.D. programs, while the Secretary of Education will issue the certificate of study. They already do this for the other CEU degrees; these programs have been added to the list. The Vice-Rector of the CEU confirms this approval at www.degree.com/vice_rector.htm.

    Finally, the World Education Series lists the CEU precisely because of their approval to operate and grant degrees. The International Handbook does as well for the same reasons, but has added MIGS to the listing because of its (MIGS's) inclusion under the CEU's approval. Either of these listings--based upon the institution's participation in its host country's higher educational system--means the degrees from such a school should be considered valid. The degrees themselves--in the case of Mexican universities--are evaluated as comparable those from accredited U.S. schools because of the certificate of study.

    The actual process undertook by the Secretary of Education to approve the CEU to award these degrees in not known to me. But it is an ongoing one. Not only does the Secretary of Education give approval for the school to run the degree programs, each degree is submitted to the Secretary's office for approval (and to issue the certificate). Considering there is absolutely no indication otherwise, why would someone assume otherwise? The burden of proof is on anyone who would say the process takes place in a different manner than that which is laid out and documented.

    Degrees from the CEU should not be--and are not--considered at the same level as those from unaccredited state-approved schools in the U.S. Now, how useful is a doctorate from a relatively unknown--yet accredited and legitimate--university in Monterrey Mexico? We shall see.

    Civilly submitted,

    Rich Douglas, who was a lot more concerned about things until getting this straight.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Rich,

    I shall call you intrepid from now on. [​IMG]

    North
    *Who wishes Rich a speedy and successful conclusion to his quest for a CEU Ph.D.

     
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member



    I'm a bit confused...if MIGS/CEU has not yet awarded a degree (which they haven't as far as I know), how on Earth can you state "Degrees from the CEU should not be--and are not--considered at the same level as those from unaccredited state-approved schools in the U.S."?

    Since MIGS/CEU has not awarded a degree yet, what possible basis of knowledge is there for such a statement? How will we know how MIGS/CEU degrees will be considered until those degrees are actually awarded, and then put forth in various settings (business, academia, etc.)?

    Bruce
     

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