Master’s International Divinity School

Any thoughts or experience with this unaccredited institution? My first impression is that their 125 pp. dissertation requirement is quite subpar.

 

Well, they are unaccredited. In other fields that do more quantitative work, 90 to 150 pages is normal. I understand that humanities dissertations tend to be much longer since they're qualitative. But, even for qualitative research, I think 200+ pages is a bit much for non-research-oriented fields.

 

My first impression is that it's a sub-$2,000 PhD from an unaccredited institution. Could it really be any worse than that?

But I'm an atheist. What the hell do I know. There are a couple of uncomplimentary threads on DI and a great long one on the sister forum - my take is that some people like to go around and around in circles trying to see some evidence of a silk purse in this sow's ear. "It's cheap - there's gotta be some value here -- let's look again --- and again -- and again."

As I see it, people who want this particular degree have 3 choices. An unaccredited "doctorate" with practically zero utility - an accredited US one - with utility and years of indentured servitude to pay for it -- or maybe a degree from South Africa - a good one. But it will still likely cost six or seven times what this one does - because you're talking years. ZA might have the "cheapest" degrees - but neither the "easiest" nor the "fastest" - as we usually answer the three-pronged question. (Yes, Michael - I know you weren't asking - but so many do. It's a reflex. Sorry.)

You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

 

I have a bit more leeway in my mind for unaccredited religious degrees (provided they are purely religious like Theology and not trying to skirt a law with creative innovations like "Church Accounting"). Accreditation is very expensive for schools and I am generally OK with smaller religious schools offering their wares. I would prefer they not offer degrees but, hey, nobody asked me.

So, following that reasoning, I see nothing outrageous about Masters International in terms of trying to shoe horn secular degrees in. They have programs in Biblical Counseling, Theology, Biblical Studies, Divinity etc. None of these are likely to have any secular appeal. Nobody is using these to fudge an MBA so they can land a CFO job. From that perspective, I view it as generally harmless to the secular workforce.

In terms of utility, by virtue of being a religious degree it already has severely diminished utility. I have had M.Div. graduates of legitimate and well respected bible colleges working on production lines either because they couldn't get a pulpit or, just as often, because the production line paid better than the pulpit and they had kids to support. This was especially common when I was hiring in the area around Clarks Summit University (then called Baptist Bible College). Perfectly legitimate ABHE school with a nice little picturesque campus that cranked out hopeful ministers who soon realized that being able to work a pallet jack was a stronger economic skill than koine Greek.

It being unaccredited diminishes its utility but, frankly, only slightly. If the school is well respected in certain circles then we've seen that it could absolutely allow you to teach at schools of that faith tradition. We go through this with LBU and Trinity Newburgh having alumni teaching, sometimes working as senior administrators, in accredited bible colleges. If your denomination of choice accepts it for ordination then that helped you reach a goal.

If you have no serious path to teaching and you have no eye on ordination, at least an ordination that might lead to pulpit work, and you just want a degree to allow you to call yourself "Doctor" then it's a vanity play. Call yourself doctor without it. Unless you are doing so to defraud people it is highly unlikely anyone would care. But degrees from the even more questionable among hte unaccredited schools are really not very useful for anything other than personal vanity.

There are some relatively low cost doctorates with varying levels of accreditation. Failing those, I guess you could pick up a program like this if you had money and time to burn. My question would be "Why?"

It's like picking UPhoenix today. There was a time when they offered something far fewer schools offered. Now it's overpriced, has a terrible reputation and there are many, many better alternatives out there. Why do it?

All that said, I again reiterate that if you take degrees out of the mix (and the vanity that drives one to pursue some of them) then the school becomes a lot less controversial. $550 for a certificate in old testament? I mean, I wouldn't pay it but I don't think it is an outlandish offering.

 

Yes, but they (the schools) DON'T. "Degrees" are their stock-in-trade. They're what this was all about. Not certificates.

...But I'm the LAST person who should talk about derailed threads...

 

At the same time, this school does sell certificates so there is clearly a market there. Maybe I'm being naive and the certificate is only to give people a taste before they buy the whole $2k package. I don't know.

My point, though, is that if a school did offer all non-degree study and its students were keen to walk away with a diploma or a certificate or something similar then I'd probably have a bit more respect for all parties involved. It isn't like there aren't people with M.Divs who demonstrate poor knowledge of scripture or people who don't have an M.Div. who possess more than adequate knowledge to be clergy (at least from an academic standpoint).

Just a funny little story...

When I was in Catholic high school (not Catholic), I had this one priest teaching religion. A very quick to anger sort of fellow. One day he was raging against the hymn "On Eagle's Wings" because the hymn, he said, had nothing to do with anything. That we should be singing praises to God and not making up crap (his word) about eagles. On and on he went about how the eagles wings piece had zero theological significance.

I, not even trying to be a smartass, said "But Father, isn't it just a reference to that part in Exodus where it says "You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself." (the actual quote I used was slightly different because we were using a Catholic bible and I looked it up on the fly just now).

This is a priest. A man with an M.Div. who also did his undergrad in a Roman Catholic seminary. Had no idea the line he was ranting against was lifted from the bible.

Accreditation cannot save you when you make an ass out of yourself. And passing a series of classes years ago doesn't make you infallible on that subject matter forevermore.

Just saying, sometimes the only things these degrees do is go to our heads.

 

THAT line should live forever! A Classic! Thanks, Neuhaus. Made my day!

BTW - I think the certificates are there for two reasons:

(1) Some people, if they can be enticed to get their feet wet, will later go for a full swim. (Degree).
(2) Others can't afford even the $2-grand degrees. So they get the $550 Cert - good wall-hanger.

 

For low-cost certificate and diploma programs, there's Christian Leaders Institute. If and when the college division becomes accredited by ABHE, it might be possible to use the certificate credits toward one of their degrees.

https://www.christianleadersinstitute.org/christian-leaders-fees/

Master's International University of Divinity also offers free bible classes through their School of Independent Learning, and you can pay $20 for a certificate of recognition.

 

That is the kind of thing I feel that unaccredited schools, religious or secular should be doing. Not awarding academic degrees.
In Canada, there is no religious exemption to allow degree awarding, such as exists in many US States. If the school does not have normal degree-granting permission -- no degrees, period. All the certs and diplomas they want. That's their business.

We have some good schools on both sides of the fence. On one side -degrees. On the other - certificates and diplomas. I think it works.

 

IIRC, though, in Canada a province can approve a school and that is seen as being RA equivalent in the US, no? That was my understanding regarding the status of the for-profit universities that cropped up in NB.

In the US, and on these boards, we have taken to treating state approval as a mere formality and stepping stone to accreditation. This, however, is relatively new (relative to the history of the country). State approval used to be all that was necessary for a school to be a legitimate school. This was evident most recently in California which is only now phasing out that old system to favor USDOE recognized accreditation. A state could approve a school, approve its programs for licensure and crank out any number of doctors, lawyers, dentists, psychologists or whatever.

The trend shifted when diploma mills were popping up and gobbling up things like GI Bill money. But states do, indeed, persist. In fact, historically, other states were recognized as accreditors by USDOE in the same manner NYS Board of Regents is today. Pennsylvania and Oklahoma were both recognized as accreditors. Probably others as well.

So I'm afraid, dear Johann, I have to disagree with you on this point that this is something no unaccredited school should be doing. In NYS the only instance I found of an unaccredited, but registered with NYS BOR (not accredited, registration is our version of state approval) being a mortuary school that offers an A.O.S. in Mortuary Science and qualifies you for licensure in the state upon completion. That's a fully legitimate degree program. I don't know if they intend to pursue any form of national accreditation. But it really shouldn't matter. NYS does not let shenanigans take place. There is no religious exemption here. And the review of coursework is not cursory.

In fact, if you look at neighboring states also lacking exemption, you find a surprising lack of degree shenanigans. Such that even my favorite Orthodox seminary example, St. Sophia's in NJ (now ATS as of 2020) was able to operate for many years awarding degrees without fear that the world would consider them a mill because NJ actually cracks down on mills.

The issue is, and has always been, that there are some states that leap giant holes in their school landscape either around religious exemption or a complete disregard of education below a certain level, or both. St. Sophia's could have operated out of Florida without ever having to worry about their status being challenged. But I doubt 3/4 of the religious exempt schools on Florida's list could ever meet the requirements of NJ, PA, NY or any number of other states that have actual educational standards.

And that's the sad part.

There should be nothing wrong with state approval being supreme. We rely on states to thoughtfully consider who can practice medicine. But we can't rely on them to vet higher education because there are a not insignificant number of states that feel religious freedom is so absolute that it allows you to award doctorates with impunity. For every NY there is an Arizona or Florida or Colorado or Louisiana.

 

Yes - Provincial approval is what's necessary to be legit. Here in Ontario, it's usually through an Act of Provincial Parliament. That's it. And yes - seen as being RA equivalent.

No prob. I expect to be disagreed with, frequently. Grumpy old men (e.g. moi) should be used to that. And you're right. NYSBOR does a very good job. In Ontario, the Funeral Service Education program is offered at only two colleges. To the best of my knowledge, it's a diploma program-not degree. We don't "degree-ify" nearly so many occupations here - that's a US thing.

That's why I like the rules here. If you want to award degrees, you have to qualify. Like all other schools - Provincially. Awarding anything else? Oh-- whatever. Go ahead.

BTW - those Universities - now gone, that cropped up in NB awarded degrees that were legal, but did not
share the same status as established NB Universities. They were DEAC (Then DETC) accredited and not a shoo-in for RA equivalency. They were allowed under a scheme hatched by a cash-strapped government of a have-not province. I view them as a money-maker -strictly. Pretty much all gone, now.

 

I was thinking of the University of Fredericton which appears to still be in place but I take your point.

And yes, things we have here that are degrees might not be elsewhere. We have a special affection for the associate's degree which in other countries would be a diploma or certificate.

My only point around funeral education here was simply that NYS is perfectly capable, I'd argue at least as capable as Ontario, to determine what is and is not legitimate education. And I like that. I don't like the notion that NYS isn't qualified to make that determination simply because some other states decided that if you slap "theology" in the name then it is a free for all. Part of that is also not liking that accredited = legitimate and non-accredited = sketchy. I realize that's me just yelling at a cloud and my disdain for it changes nothing, of course.

 

Yes. U. Fredericton = different league to those I spoke of.

Indeed you do. OK - whatever works. A couple of provinces (in the West) are leaning that way here.

I like it, too.

Agreed.

I'll go this far - and no farther (said my girlfriend in 1959) : Accreditation is basically a deemed legitimacy - by the accreditor. If the accreditor is legit, it's a guarantee of uh - something. I guess that includes your not being in trouble for using your degree.
Unaccredited - no deemed legitimacy by an authority (yet, anyway.) Not necessarily bad - but it's a crapshoot.

"Deem" or "crapshoot?" Your choice.

 

I managed to come across three doctoral dissertations by a few Master's International University of Divinity students, and I was encouraged by the quality and depth of their work. I also found several academic journal articles by grads of the school that were worthwhile. Whether those articles were required as part of the program, as some biblical or theological studies research programs require, I cannot say. For those looking for distance theological education and are not concerned with recognized accreditation, this institution may be a good option to consider. Their faculty has some notable practical theologians (e.g., Dr. Howard Eyrich; Dr. David Tyler), and there are graduates who teach at conventionally accreditated institutions (e.g., Dr. Noel Sanderson). It would seem as though they have a stellar biblical counseling program, and their connection with IABC affords a pathway to certification.

 

They were bad at one point and basically advertised how easy their degrees were. As I recall they were an arm of Trinity Newburgh and bringing in money.

I believe that Dr. Fry (?) and others got control of it as a separate entity and set about to improve it.

I haven't examined it and so cannot make an assessment. You may well be right.