Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Way, Dec 27, 2003.
I agree with most of Craig's theses. Regardless of degree nomenclature, LBU should indeed become more stringent in the grad level "biblical studies" degrees. At this level one would expect familiarity with the languages. Just this year, the LBU seminary (LBTS) implemented a ThM program, which "requires the MDiv (or equivalent), plus familiarity with the biblical languages" as prerequisites for entrance. The ThD has the same prerequisites. IMO, the LBU PhD should be strictly in the area of theology, specifically "practical theology." Courses in biblical studies could indeed be incorporated, yet, in the main, the degree would be better served to focus on practics. The entire 2005-2006 LBU catalog can be read online at www.lbu.edu.
Like Craig, I too have seen a progressive intentional effort from LBU to improve both the quality and substance of its programs. The purchase of a new facility, enhancing the rigor of certain programs, dropping its association with ACCTS, etc. are just a few. In conversation with LBU administration, I was told they have assumed the position that no accreditation is better than association with a nonrecognized agency (a position Walston also assumes). ACCTS was a small attempt among a few Independent Baptist schools to provide oversight, however, it never developed as originally planned. LBU has now dropped all association with ACCTS, for which they are to be commended. Hopefully, this intentional effort of enhancement will continue.
I think that I could not walk circles around a Harvard ThD grad in Bible.
Consider Roy Hoover and his Harvard ThD in Bible dissertation as summarized in the Harvard Theological Review, 56, (1971):95-119. Dr. Hoover entitles it "The Harpagmos Enigma: a Philological Solution."
The issue Hoover deals with is whether or not harpagmos as a predicate accusative when occuring with certain verbs as egesato is used as an idiomatic expression or not. As harpagmos is rare in the Biblical literature, Hoover extracts his data from the Greek occurences of it in such combinations found in such as Heliodorus, Plutarch, Josephus, Cyril of Alexandria, and Eusebius.
His conclusion is that indeed harpagmos is idiomatically so used.
The application of this datum to Biblical studies as grammatics, lexics, and exegesis [as well as to Systematic Theology which after all must be based on these] is that were Hoover correct, then such as Burk in his address to the Evangelical Theological Society in the spring of 2000 and Wallace of DTS in his Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics are wrong: ton einai isa theo would be anaphoric with morphe then-- not concessive!
No, I could not walk circles around that.
But my question is: does the LBU PhD in Bible prepare the grad to even see where Hoover walked??? If it does not, then IMO it is very, very deficit.
I merely put forth the possibility that it is not out of reason to believe somewhere a graduate in Bible from an RA graduate or postgraduate program lacks scholarship.
I cannot name one and you couldn't name one either in regards to the theme of this thread until Jason posted.
Do you really believe every master's or doctoral grad in Bible from RA schools is a top notch scholar? Do you really believe there are no RA grads in Bible from RA master's or doctoral programs who lack scholarship?
Face it Bill, there are RA grads in Bible in master's and doctoral programs who did not do so well as some of their classmates. Not all grads had 4.00 GPA's. So, yes, a 3.00 GPA grad lacks the scholarship of a 4.00 GPA grad.
Based on some of your posts regarding harpagmos in regards to Philippians 2, I think you could at least easily hold your own with Hoover. Anyway, I have known a few Harvard docs when I pastored in Detroit and you definitely would walk circles around them. Granted they were either Unitarians or Congregationalists but Harvard docs nontheless.
You are kind, but I think mistaken. I have to work extremely hard at simple exegesis. I think my spirit is willing, but my flesh is weak.
Speaking of weak flesh, I need to break off and go on my diabetic walk.
My sincere best to you, my friend.
Well Bill, this is an easy one. No, no it doesn't. Neither would a PhD in Bible from a number of accredited theological institutions prepare one to walk where Hoover walked.
Even among accredited seminaries, schools of religion, and schools of divinity, there are tiers of academics, hence tiers of scholarship.
But you are a scholar and your postings reflect what scholars do engage in polemics.
Well, time to eat lunce and go calling and visiting. Have a wonderful afternoon, my friend!
Before I go I had better make a correction or two.
Obviously I forgot the comma after "do" and misspelled lunch.
To HAVE lunch is more important than spelling lunch, and having God is more important than defining God. Sometimes I forget that.
It seemed to me that you were making fun of his weakness. Laughing at someone that is not a comediant is, in my view, a mean thing to do. It is almost a discrimination. You feel better than him because he may not be as smart or informed as you are.
Maybe you would laugh at him because he is not as tall as you are, as pretty as you are, or as caucasian as you are. I may be overly sensitive, but I found it pretty cruel.
You may find it funny (you're human after all), but laughing at him publicly can hurt.
And both of you were kind of making fun with each other and ending it always with "God bless you" or something, which gave me the impression of sarcasm using God's name.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Afterthoughts on this discussion
In fact I was referring to the discussion between Bill and Jason. I find this discussion between you and Bill very enlightening.
Re: Re: Re: Afterthoughts on this discussion
I noticed nobody addressed my question above. I would sincerely like some help with that.
I am not sure if I am being out of line for challenging the Bible here, but I figured that are no better authorities than religious scholars to shed some light into my doubts, since you guys have faith but are still well acquainted with scientific reasoning.
If you can point to threads that address religious vs science issues and clarifications I would be glad as well. Thanks for your time.
Excuse me, but Jason has one doctorate and is now getting another. One with TWO docs should not be "weak."
I can understand why you might have some difficulty in getting a good hold on the context.
Unless I am mistaken the context was what research tools are appropriate to do rigorous doctoral lexical work in Bible. Unless I am mistaken Jason was saying that Strong's Concordance is a proper research tool for that.
That IS very funny , and I will likely laugh at anyone who makes such a preposterous statement.
Sorry if that upsets you.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Afterthoughts on this discussion
If you will read this thread in its entirety, you will see that Dr. Gastrich provides the address of a website for a discussion group on the Bible's inerrancy. He has available for you many apologetic sort of materials including his own book about the Bible for which he "earned" a doc in theology. I think his website listed above is still active.
I'm sure there many other books and websites for your perusal.
I personally don't have much interest in defending the Bible. It is my observation that the apostolic Kerygma generally does not deal with evidences for the Scriptures. Rather, we read in the NT phrases such as "God opened her heart" or "the Father draws them unto Himself."
It probably sounds really stupid. But right now I am selling off possessions , including our large home and getting a much cheaper one, so that I can afford to give my time to teach freely what is more important to me than anything.
A faith which is not worth living is not worth having.
I've wasted quite enough time living for myself!
But , as said, other Christians spend a great deal of effort trying to prove Christianity by logic or science. I don't.
If you have a question about the meaning of a Scripture or a Christian teaching, then I'd be happy to discuss that IF we go to off topic.
But I'm not at all interested in trying to prove my faith.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Afterthoughts on this discussion
Let me suggest you purchase a copy of The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell.
Used copies can be purchased here.
Actually any good apologetic will suffice.
so what's the deal?
Is Louisiana Baptist University a genuine school? Do you believe that the degrees from LBU should be able to be used for professional and employment considerations? There have been a number of posts asking this question, and from what I gather, it starts to take a nose dive into a different direction, which is about the doctorate degrees and so forth. What is your opinions, should a person who graduated with a degree from LBU be able to list this on a resume, and should they be proud of such a credential? Is it just for certain levels i.e. undergraduate is fine, but graduate is not?
I've noticed that some of the schools that are listed for the people that are instructors at the college, that they do not come up on a search engine. I'm somewhat puzzled by that.
Is there any persons, who have graduated from Louisiana Baptist University, and have been able to use it for ministry or for professional consideration. Please lets try to really deal with this issue. Thanks.
This thread is 7 pages. There are perhaps 10 additional pages here at degreeinfo on LBU. EVERY question you ask has been answered 10 times from three or four different perspectives.
As a graduate let me answer, without ambiguity, some of your questions.
Yes, I am proud of the degree. Yes, I list it. Yes, I have a job. Yes. I preach. Yes, I write and publish. So do many hundreds of other graduates. No, I don't think it is the best school on earth. No, I am not in prison. No, I have never met one person who regreted their LBU studies. Yes, they offer language instruction but require very few language courses. No, nobody laughs when I walk by. Yes, the coursework seemed generally similar to the over 450 units of coursework I have from residential RA schools. Yes, several LBU graduates in ministry pastor churches of over 1,000 members. Yes, they have courses with course requirements and texbooks. Yes, the buildings are real. Yes, LBU could improve a number of things. Yes, Shreveport is real.
Why don't you stop hedging and answer the question
...and a nice town I might add. The missus would like us to go back there someday.
Separate names with a comma.