licensed MH counselors - is PhD worth it?

Discussion in 'Nursing and medical-related degrees' started by Michele, Jul 26, 2002.

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  1. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    I’d like to make my point by way of a fable. Picture a hot July, 1965 evening in Lower Bucks County, PA. Dave, an 18-year old gearhead, sets out to cruise the circuit and see if he can find some action. He winds up at Hot Shoppes, a carhop restaurant, in Abington frequented by other car-crazed adolescents where he parks and walks over to a group of guys standing around talking. Challenge for dominance is almost palpable and the night air is heavy with the smell of burnt rubber, high-octane gas, and testosterone.

    North: “Yo Dave, haven’t seen you in a while; new wheels?”

    Dave: “Yeah, North, I got rid of the ’58. Those wedgeheads are dogs.” *

    Irat : “ ’56 two door postie; great body to build into a street machine.” **

    Dave: “Yeah, the engine was shot and I got a deal on the body.”

    North: “What are you running, sounds like you got a ‘cam in it?”

    Dave: “I swapped the 265 for a 327 and, yeah, it’s got a cam. It’s also got an AFB on an Edelbrock manifold, Hurst mystery shifter, a 411 posi rear and some other nice goodies.”

    Irat: “Sits up awful high, don’t it.”

    Dave: “Yeah, I go for weight transfer. It’s got station wagon springs and 90-10 shocks on the front and extra leaves in the rear. No top end but it’ll really fly off the line and that’s what its all about, right?”

    Dave leaves a little past eleven to make the midnight shift at Fairless Steel in Morrisville where he’s employed as a steelworker. While exiting the lot a kandiapple red ’58 Impala pulls alongside. The driver, a guy name of Simon, leans over and issues a challenge. “You’re wrong man, and I’m going to make you choke on your words.”

    Gradually it dawns on Dave that Simon resents his comment about wedgeheads and he’s being chosen.*** Indignant with adolescent rage Dave responds, “Tomorrow night. Decatur Road at eight.”

    Pan forward to the present.

    Grow up, Simon, and quit sniping. Is your skin so thin you read my ideas as a personal affront? People ask questions for information and I post so that others might benefit from my experience. You’re gunning for me and I don’t do grudge matches. I gave up that adolescent stuff long ago. This board is about providing helpful information not seeing who can turn the fastest quarter. Is it going to be necessary to pass advice past the PC police and are you the police commissioner? You chose Jack Tracey, you chose Howard Rogers, and I don’t know just whom all you’ve chosen but I’m declining the bait. Michelle is perfectly capable of evaluating information I present on her own. North had a comment and he had the intellectual honesty to point it directly to me. Choose someone else; I don’t care to waste the time and energy.

    * 348 cubic inch engine introduced by Chevrolet in passenger cars in 1958. The forerunner of the legendary 409 with wedge shaped heads that earned the engine the nickname of wedgehead or wedgie.

    ** 1956 Chevrolet two-door sedan; a favored platform for building a street legal hot rod. Much like Bob Falfa’s 1955 Chevrolet in American Graffiti.

    *** American 1960s slang to challenge someone to a drag race.

    **** For those who might recognize the backdrop, I borrowed the John Milner/Bob Falfa Paradise Road scene from American Graffiti for artistic license. Thank you Misters LeMat, Ford and Lucas. I never had a wedgehead but the ’56 did exist, it did go like a bat out of Hell, and I did engage in street racing when I was young, very foolish, and allowed myself to be goaded into nonsense.
     
  2. simon

    simon New Member

    Williams: Dave leaves a little past eleven to make the midnight shift at Fairless Steel in Morrisville where he’s employed as a steelworker. While exiting the lot a kandiapple red ’58 Impala pulls alongside. The driver, a guy name of Simon, leans over and issues a challenge. “You’re wrong man, and I’m going to make you choke on your words.”

    Response: Oh brother!

    Williams: Grow up, Simon, and quit sniping.

    Response: It is not a matter of maturational level but an extremely relevant point I was making that unfortunately triggered this hyper-defensive reaction.

    The bottomline is that all of us, need to be careful regarding our feedback to posters. We don't know anything regarding how our responses can affect another poster. This can be in a positive or negative direction.

    As noted in my posting, I indicated that providing feedback and information is commendable. However, it is my perspective that you, I and everybody else need to exercise discretion in presenting point blank negations of certain disciplines because it can have a major impact on some posters professional and life decisions.

    We are not providing information to an individual we know well but to unknown "entities" online. This critical fact reinforces the need to present our opinions carefully and with an openess to the fact that the individual on the other side of the computer may be dramatically affected by opinions offered by others.

    Williams: Is your skin so thin you read my ideas as a personal affront?

    Response: Is this a projection?

    Williams: People ask questions for information and I post so that others might benefit from my experience.

    Response: Information is one thing but emphatic and directive positions are another.

    Williams:You’re gunning for me and I don’t do grudge matches.

    Response: And you imply that I'm thin skinned? Let me assure you that the example i used in my posting was not in any way an attempt to go "gunning" for you or anyone else. In fact this is not a word in my vocabulary.

    I was attempting to support a poster who requested assistance with a serious decision re: continuining with a specific doctoral program. Obviously the fields of counseling and psychology are inundated and highly competitive. However, your incessant "beating the drum" against others entering these disciplines may inadvertently discourage a poster from having the opportunity to explore and possbily enter these fields. As noted what may have not worked for one poster may be a complete success for another.

    Williams: I gave up that adolescent stuff long ago.

    Response: No comment.

    Williams: This board is about providing helpful information not seeing who can turn the fastest quarter.

    Response: Obviously. However, you do appear to be quite adamant in the expression of your opinions and perceptions and quite insistent in your positions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this but please be aware that your postings aren't exaxtly as compromising as you seem to imply.

    Williams: Is it going to be necessary to pass advice past the PC police and are you the police commissioner?

    Response: Etc, etc.

    Williams: You chose Jack Tracey, you chose Howard Rogers, and I don’t know just whom all you’ve chosen but I’m declining the bait.

    Response: Please, no splitting allowed in this establishment or baiting others on your part. If this is the level of your response to not being baited, which was not my intent, I can only imagine how you would respond if you were baited.

    Williams: Michelle is perfectly capable of evaluating information I present on her own.

    Response: This is where I seriously disagree with you. We do not know what anybody is "capable" of (please Michelle this is not directed at you) and to make this assumption is potentially deleterious to another person who we know absolutely nothing about. Although the intent may be commendable the results of such assumptions may be remarkably inaccurate.

    Williams: North had a comment and he had the intellectual honesty to point it directly to me. Choose someone else; I don’t care to waste the time and energy.

    Response: I wish that you would have stated this point initially it would have saved a great deal of time and energy. This was not a matter of intellectual dishonesty, but of my not directly addressing these issues to you. For that i apologize. Your point is well taken.

    Williams:* 348 cubic inch engine introduced by Chevrolet in passenger cars in 1958. The forerunner of the legendary 409 with wedge shaped heads that earned the engine the nickname of wedgehead or wedgie.

    ** 1956 Chevrolet two-door sedan; a favored platform for building a street legal hot rod. Much like Bob Falfa’s 1955 Chevrolet in American Graffiti.

    *** American 1960s slang to challenge someone to a drag race.

    **** For those who might recognize the backdrop, I borrowed the John Milner/Bob Falfa Paradise Road scene from American Graffiti for artistic license. Thank you Misters LeMat, Ford and Lucas. I never had a wedgehead but the ’56 did exist, it did go like a bat out of Hell, and I did engage in street racing when I was young, very foolish, and allowed myself to be goaded into nonsense.

    Response: Next time Dave perhaps you should be as "intellectually honest" with your reactions as you expect from others and point out from the jump start your angry impressions re: my posting. I think it would have served as a better role model than this tirade.

    Nontheless, your "beef' is legitimate and I apologize once again not bringing this to your personal attention in a posting or private e-mail.

    Simon
     
  3. Howard

    Howard New Member

    A couple of points, to answer a couple of questions, if I may:

    1. Is it worth it - this is relative, by this do you mean will your income increase. Possibly, but not necessarily. Mine has increased, but as a result of using the PhD for speaking and seminar purposes. As for an increase in counseling - no, the fees for a PhD and a MA in Alabama are the same. The PhD may have prevented me from getting a position at a Junior College. By law, they would have to pay me more, and the president tries to keep salaries low. I will know in a couple of weeks.

    2. Would I do it again - I love the experience I had a Capella. The school is excellent and the faculty is great, but if I had had knowledge of this board and would have checked into what the PhD would do for me I would probably have gone the South Africa
    or Australia route.

    3. How is the overseas - South Africa move going. Dropped it. A research PhD without my PhD from Capella would have worked, but with the PhD from Capella it is basically useless. UNISA is developing a taught Doctorate in Psychology to be offered in 2004, I may try that. Univ. of Stellenbosch has a PhD in Clinical Psy that I am trying to get on a distance learning basis. (Does anyone know anything about this school and/or have in contacts in the school of psychology). I look at a PsyD or PhD in Clinical Psychology in Australia - requires a two week residence in each of the two years.

    So, I may simply get a Masters of Arts in Theology at either Coolamon or The Centre for Christian Spirituality in Australia.

    Blessings,
    Howard
     
  4. irat

    irat New Member

    teacher says...

    Teacher says, make "I..." statements. I found that...
    I have... , I don't feel...because in my experience..., Or I just can't figure out...
    Teacher says whenever you point the finger with a "you..."statement, there are 3 fingers pointed back at yourself.
    There seem to be only three types of information for a person looking at distance degrees at this site.
    1). The factual data related to physical characteristics--the location of a campus, how many students attend, demographics
    2) Anecdotal information. The "when I was a..." type of information.
    3) Studies using statistical analysis. Sometimes this site offers links to them, sometimes journal references.
    With the anecdotal information that one reads on-line, one can never assume it is representative of an entire industry. I have to assume that those on any site are not statistically representative of a population.
    However, some anecdotal information is very helpful. Stories of how someone got a bureaucracy to do something, may help others develop similar stategies--at their own risk.
    Does the site need a disclaimer that "these are only opinions, management does not accept any responsibility"?
    All the best!
     
  5. simon

    simon New Member

    Re: teacher says...

     
  6. lineman

    lineman New Member

    Mr. Howard Rodgers:

    Good morning:

    Could you please explain how the PhD. from South Africa or Austrailia would work? How would the clinical aspect needed to gain licensure be obtained, and would it also be APA approved?
    Would you be able to get a Residency with a PhD such as this?

    I Thank You for any information on the subject.

    Sincerely:
    Lineman
     
  7. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    Howard,

    Thanks for weighing in with a concise, nicely balanced review of the advantages and disadvantages. Especially in what isn’t an especially conflict-free zone. I admire your candor and integrity. Michelle and others in her position will be well served by your report.

    I do hope you’re able to meet your goal of obtaining psychology licensure. I like Irat’s suggestion of sharing strategies. I was able to negotiate one year of coursework and a psychology internship on top of the counseling Ph.D. That was at Indiana State; I wonder if the folk at Auburn might be able to work with you on something similar? Assuming, of course, you have the degrees of freedom to go bricks and mortar.

    I wonder if you might comment on what the problem is with you already having graduated Capella? The fact that having the degree negates the South African opportunity is amazing. I once recall my advisor, who did a lot of networking around the globe, discussing the practice of counseling v. clinical psychology in S. Africa. Something to the effect that counseling psychology, unlike here in the States, is based on the medical model. But, then again, that was years ago and I’ve slept a few times since.

    David
     
  8. simon

    simon New Member

    Howqrd: 1. Is it worth it - this is relative, by this do you mean will your income increase. Possibly, but not necessarily. Mine has increased, but as a result of using the PhD for speaking and seminar purposes. As for an increase in counseling - no, the fees for a PhD and a MA in Alabama are the same. The PhD may have prevented me from getting a position at a Junior College. By law, they would have to pay me more, and the president tries to keep salaries low. I will know in a couple of weeks.


    Simon: Howard, thanks for your feedback.

    If you are interested, potentially lucrative areas in which one can expand their practice utilizing this degree include such areas as executive and/or professional development coaching and assessment as well as a myriad of special niche coaching.

    If one has the interest,experience/training in this area and the ambition there are potential opportunities and the income is potentially very good and can complement income from private practice. The doctorate in Professional Counseling and related mental health discipines such as pschology are excellent preparatory credentials for entry into this field.

    In fact, in recent issues of the Harvard Business Review and the Networker the significance of possessing a mental health degree in order to function as a coach was discussed. This is due to the fact that the field of coaching is inundated with individuals who can not effectively deal with underlying psychological issues.

    If you are interested send me a private e-mail and I will share with you my experiences in this field.


    Simon
     
  9. Howard

    Howard New Member

    Hello Lineman,
    Sorry not to get back to you sooner. Neither of the degrees would be APA approved. The PhD from Unizul was not a clinical degree and I was specifically told that it would not be certified as such. The degree from Australia would be a clinical degree, which is the reason for the 10 day residency in each of the two years. The South African degree was by research and the Australian degree was a taught degree with a thesis. The Australian degree would probably qualify you to take the licensing test in some states. You would need to check this out.

    Again, sorry for the delay, if I can be of further assistance let me know.

    Blessings, Howard.
     
  10. Howard

    Howard New Member

    Hi David,
    The problem is that the South African degree would not add any value to the Capella degree. I am looking for licensure in psychology, specifically clinical psy, and the PhD from So Africa is a research degree and would not list specific courses necessary to take the psych exam. The information concerning Indiana is good info. I was raised in Indianapolis, so I might consider this. How much campus time is actually required. And, I could try UAB, my alma mater, as well as Tusculoosa. I had not thought of this approach. Thanks, again.

    Blessings, Howard.
     
  11. lineman

    lineman New Member

    Mr Rodgers:

    Thank You for your reply. Your experience and knowledge are of great benefit to me.


    Thank You:
     
  12. sulla

    sulla New Member

    Howard, instead of trying for a non-APA degree why not try for a respecialization?

    I know that the Fielding Institute offers it onlo to those who have a RA PhD in psychology. The respecialization takes about two years, and viola! You're on the licensure track!

    -S
     
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    If I recall correctly, the respecialization option is only available to those with a non-clinical psychology doctorate (social psychology, experimental psychology, etc.). I think Howard's doctorate is in counseling, not psychology.


    Bruce
     
  14. sulla

    sulla New Member

    I believe Howards' PhD is in counseling psychology, that is. This should not be a problem. He is still elibigle for the respecialization in clinical psy.

    Check out this link for Fielding: http://www.fielding.edu/schoolpsy/rcp.htm

    -S
     
  15. simon

    simon New Member

    I'm not Howard's spokesman however he has a doctorate in Professional Counseling not Counseling Psychology.

    SImon
     
  16. irat

    irat New Member

    check with the licensing people

    You may want to check with the state you want to practice.
    Some states have the loophole that a degree predominantly psychological can be supplemented to allow a person to take the psy exam.
    Many states have their rules on-line. But it might make sense to talk directly with one of the bureaucrats in charge of processing the licensing requests.
    In VT. the rules recently changed. Until recently a degree could be considered "related to the field" if half the credits were in psychology (or if not in psychology offered with a substantial psychological course content and a credentialed psychologist).
    So check the rules in your state.
    All the best!
     
  17. sulla

    sulla New Member

    Ok, then.
    BTW did you get the chance to contact Allen Hall regarding I/O licensing in Fl? I'd like to know if you got more information.

    thanks,
    -S
     
  18. simon

    simon New Member

    Sulla: Ok, then.
    BTW did you get the chance to contact Allen Hall regarding I/O licensing in Fl? I'd like to know if you got more information.


    Not yet. However, I appreciate the info and will followup.

    Thanks,

    Simon
     
  19. Howard

    Howard New Member

    The PhD is in Human Services with a Professional Counseling concetration. I was given the latitude to align the coursework so that it is essentially what a PhD in Clinical Psy would have been. At the time I started the program Capella did not have the psychology school and when the psychology school was started I was too far along to transfer. In Minneasota I would qualify to sit for the psy exam, however, in Alabama I do not. Interestingly enough, while I was there one of the professors met a girl from Montgomery and wanted to move to Alabama but the Psy board would not recognize his MN license and would not let him sit for the Alabama license. Go figure. But guys, keep up the suggestions, who knows, one may work. Thanks, H.
     
  20. David Williams

    David Williams New Member

    Bruce,

    This is exactly the case. It doesn't matter what area of psychology the first degree is in so long as it IS in psychology. The early 80s saw many academically trained psychologists unable to secure employment who sought licensure in order to have work. It came to be known as going in through the back door. In response, APA endorsed the Respecialization in Psychology which is commonly referred to as a "retread." Retreads typically spend a year or two on campus and then an internship year after which the university awards a certificate of equivalence. In point of fact, when I transitioned from counseling to psychology I started as a retread candidate. Once I became aware of the limitations I contacted the Army and the VA and both organizations reported back that since my first doc was in counseling I was not an acceptable candidate for either an internship or employment. I could see the handwriting on the wall and since I felt like I'd already bought one Edsel I arranged to be admitted as a doctoral student with advanced standing. Taking a full courseload, managing assistantship duties, doing prelims, applying for internship, and doing a second disser in one year was grueling but it paid off in the end. I should add that my degree is in counseling and not clinical psychology. The licensure is the same and the bias one used to encounter against folk trained in counseling psych no longer exists. That isn't to say there isn't a pecking order but, rather, a different pecking order.

    David
     

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