licensed MH counselors - is PhD worth it?

Hello,
I'm hoping to hear from those of you knowledgeable about private practice therapists.
Currently, I work in a non-profit organization providing mental health counseling to individuals and families. I have no immediate desire to leave here. However, I will be getting my state licensure next year (I'm an M.S.) and the possibility of private practice looms in the future when my husband retires - and I might want greater "schedule" freedom.
My question is this: Is there any benefit at all to earning my PhD, if my only two interests are 1) continue as an employee (absolutely NO income difference between an MS and a PhD) or 2) future private practice? I'm in the doctoral program now at Capella Univ., but my motivation is really lagging . . . and the tuition costs are mounting. I'm a little tired of working full-time and studying in my spare time - yes, I might feel different later on, but . . . is it worth it? My first goal was simply that I enjoyed the coursework GREATLY and wanted to learn more, but I can do that in other ways.
From anyone who knows about insurance billing, is there any difference between a licensed mental health counselor reimbursement at the MS level vs. PhD? (Note - not psychology).

Thank you,
~Michele

 

ONE thought...

Several years ago I dated a woman who had just finished the first year of the PsyD in Psychology at the University of Denver.

In her opinion, there was little value and not much career freedom in having a masters. To her it was a no brainer: go for the Doctorate. (However, to those who don't know, the PsyD is a three+ year professional degree, analogous to the JD--a long research paper is presented in lieu of the PhDs much lengthier dissertation.)

So--to your specific question,
"Is there any benefit at all to earning my PhD, if my only two interests are 1) continue as an employee (absolutely NO income difference between an MS and a PhD) or 2) future private practice?"

No--if #1 -- Yes if #2 -- and finally, could transfering to a less onerous PsyD be a viable option for you? That sounds like the ideal avenue.
Good luck!

--Orson

 

Michele,

A Ph.D in Counseling adds credibility to one's professional image amongst clients and peers. It can result in opportunities such as conducting seminars, authoring books and journal articles and engaging in other professional activities that would be less available to an individual with a masters degree. Furthermore, the doctorate will generally result in more receptivity to one's ideas from colleagues. Possessing a doctorate also has a strong placebo effect on clients that may contribute to the "healing" process.

In order to assess whether you will receive more money from insurance carriers with a doctorate in counselng will require that you contact specific managed care companies and make an inquiry regarding this matter.

In terms of continuing with your doctoral studies, obviously you are the only one who can make that decision. However, it is important to keep in mind that time marches on regardless and even though working and completing a degree of this nature is difficult, the attainment of a doctorate is an achievement that will last a lifetime.

Are you taking online courses at Capella or are you taking self-directed coursework?

 

Hi Simon,
I've done (and plan to do) a mix of both online and DS courses. You make excellent points about the placebo effects on clients - I hadn't thought about that, and the other things you mentioned. I think I'm just at a low-energy point and need a little external motivation to continue. Also, the particular courses I'm taking at the moment are NOT as interesting as future courses might be - that may be contributing to my lagging interests . . .
~Michele

 

depends what you want to do?

I am a L. Clinical Mental Health Couselor, a L. Alcohol & Drug Abuse Counselor, a Certified Rehabilitation Counselor and a Lic. Guidance Counselor.
If you are looking at getting a ph.d. in Human Servies or Mental Health and you already have a LCMHC. I don't see much benefit.
If you are looking at getting a PsyD or a ph.d. in psy there could be a benefit. But it depends what you want to do.
A PsyD or ph.D psy could do psychological evaluations, possibly be licensed as a school pyschologist etc. Those things are generally out of the reach of a LCMHC.
One thing to consider is that a LCMHC in most states needs almost continual education. In VT you need about 50 ceu's every two years or about 4 semester credits. In 10 years you need about 20 semester credits. If you can find a part-time program, you might be able to end up with a PsyD or ph.d. while doing the things you need to maintain your credential.
But the real question, is what do you hope to gain?
If you want to teach at the college level, probably you would have better luck with a ph.d. in almost any subject, than no ph.d.
All the best!

 

Re: depends what you want to do?

 

Hi Michelle,

I would remain at the master’s level. “Along the way” I earned an MSW, a PhD in counseling and an APA approved PhD in psychology. The counseling degree offered no additional professional opportunities.

 

My two bits worth - - My wife is a high school counselor, has a master's in counseling and her CMHC, and has a small private practice. She plans to retire from the school system (near Seattle) in a few years and expand her private practice. She earns $75 per hour in her practice. She sees no benefit to a doctorate, considering the price (time, work, money).

 

Hi michele,

As you can see, there is a diversity of opinion concerning the value of obtaining a doctorate in counseling. Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer and only you can determine the best course of action for yourself.

However, it is important to note that although individual posters provide their perspective regarding the limitations of this degree no one can make definitive statements that this degree is of no value. This is simply not based on fact. It is their opinion based on their experiences which may not have any bearing on any other individual's future application of the degree.

For each poster who relates their anecdotal accounts of the lack of value of pursing this degree I know of several Ph.ds in counseling who are doing very well financially and professionally including engaging in organizational consulting, private counseling practices, teaching, writing journal articles, conducting seminars, etc.

As I noted earlier, no one can guarantee anothers success or prognosticate that a degree in a specific field is not a viable option. For instance I know of a number of APA Clinical Psychologists and Psychiatrists who are not doing very well financially or professionally. Success is based on the individual's level of ambition, business entrepreneur mind-set and acumen, aggressiviness and ability to aspire to success.

 

what do you want to do?

I think I mentioned earlier that whether a ph.d. is worth it, depends almost entirely on what you want. and to some extent the rules in your state.
If you want to have a private practice in your state, check out what insurance companies are asking for clinicans? Check out both liability insurance for yourself and billing insurance companies for counseling.
In my state it is quite possible to have a private practice with a masters level degree in mental health. However, there are limitations.
If you think you might want to teach college, the ph.d. would be a big plus. If you want to move up in an agency to the level of a supervisor, a ph.d. might help.
All the best!

 

Based on the professional training and experiential background of the individual, a doctorate in counseling can be utilized in a myriad of different contexts within a private practice.

Some of these include professional executive coaching and professional development, career consultation and counseling, organizational consultation, clinical mental health counseling, etc.

Yes, there are master level clinicians who engage in these practices. However, for practitioners who possess the doctorate and are enterprising it generally DOES make a significant difference in terms of the publics perception and receptivity. There is also a definite edge to being refered to as "doctor' that goes beyond an ego trip.

 

Well, I want to thank everyone for your points of view and insight. I appreciate all your replies, and you've given me food for thought.

I think I knew that when I started the PhD, it wasn't for monetary gain . . . but for personal and professional growth. and continuous improvement in my client services. However, lately, I've been running out of steam and looking for a bit of motivation, and a reason to continue paying that high tuition.

Capella U. has been absolutely wonderful. I also wrote my feelings to my mentor (assigned to my program) and also to my previous M.S. mentor. I continue to be amazed at the level of personal care and professional support I receive from this institution.

But, back to my thoughts. In my role as mental health therapist, I'm also a Behavioral Health Program Manager in this non-profit organization - supervising. In an organization of more than 1000 employees, none are PhD-level, nor are any PhD's in similar community agencies around here. They are all in private practice, it seems.

Interestingly, I've noticed that over the years as I've participated in countless panel interviews for new employees (including management position candidates) there has been a distinct bias AGAINST hiring a PhD (or a PsyD or a DSW). Co-workers on the panel have expressed fears that a PhD wouldn't stay, wouldn't consider the "employee" wages, might be too "bookish" and less clinically-oriented . . . on and on. My own father (a PhD professor) said that earning a PhD might actually bump me out of employee-level positions if I ever looked to change companies, because agencies can be a bit intimidated by a PhD - sometimes even the people looking to hire you won't want to hire someone "smarter than they are" (or who might appear to be because of the PhD).

However, in the private practice scenario, which is really what I need to know about for the future when my husband retires, I see that a PhD would be a positive for people "shopping" for a therapist - and again, the "placebo" effect that Simon mentioned might indeed help a client believe that the services are somehow better. (even though we all know that excellent clinicians are found at both levels, as are rotten ones

I did make a couple of phone calls to insurance companies credentialing . . . have not found any difference in reimbursement for fees of licensed mental health couselors between an MS or PhD level.

All this being said, if I think long and hard about the real reasons I wanted to continue in the first place toward my PhD goal, it's more for personal satisfaction. I have absolutely no interest in being anyone else's employee at another agency, and definitely not changing fields, no academia or psychology - I'm very happy where I am. I'm at the top of my field (financially) as far as an employee/supervisor is concerned. I think my own professional growth and personal satisfaction (and yes, confidence) would be stronger if I strike out on my own in the future in private practice - with a PhD, compared to my MS. There are MANY M.S's providing services, and fewer PhD's in this community. Although I haven't uncovered any monetary gain for earning a PhD, I'm leaning toward all the other intangeable reasons for a PhD. Thank you all for this thoughtful discourse.

~Michele

 

Michele,

I am glad that this exchange was helpful and led to your clarifying your needs. The doctorate in counseling represents more than an entry to more income and recognition. It is not only a matter of whether a masters degree does the "trick" but an issue of self-development and improvement. In effect, it symbolizes a level or personal, preofessional, intellectual and psychological growth, that for some individuals is the essence of life.

Best of luck!

 

Michelle,

I had one additional thought I want to pass along about my experience of how the PhD in counseling was received; on numerous occasions it had a paradoxical effect. By this I mean that I was perceived as having settled for second best. Human nature being what it is some folk assumed I did not have the horsepower to win acceptance to and succeed in a psychology doctorate. I never saw this coming and it was difficult to reconcile the joy of finishing a PhD with this bias. My experience was much like that of Howard Rogers (who occasionally posts on this board) in that I found the limitations unacceptable. Last I recall Howard was trying to pull together an offshore psychology doctorate to move up to psychology licensure.

For a number of reasons I don't think the effort of pursuing the counseling PhD is worth the outcome.

By the bye. Howard if you read this how goes the offshore quest?

David

 

Hey David,

A couple of comments. Achieving your doctorate regardless of the field is a great achievement, one that most people do not obtain. There will always being some bias in the Psychological field. Psych PhD's look down on Masters level practioners and Pscyhiatrists look down on Psychologists. I know the wife of a Psychiatrist who says that *everyone knows that Psychologists are just people who did not have the ability to get into medical school". A Psychologist may on the other hand feel they are better prepared with actual Psychology coursework. It is a very competitive field. Some Psychiatrists were livid at the prospect of Psychologists with prescription privileges. Many voiced a concern about the Pscyhologists lack of proper scientific training. However, much of the conern may have centered more around the issue of a niche market the Psychiatrists had and ot need more competition.

I also agree with Simon. The pursuit of a doctorate in counseling can be more than for simply monetary gain (although you have to weigh the possible debt load). There are other reasons that are personal and intellectual. I am pursuing an accredited doctorate in Christian counseling. It is a paradigm (excuse the use of that over used word) that interests me. Whether it professionally pays off at some point or not is not material to me at all. It will pay off personally & intellectually which is my reason for pursuing it.

Good luck Michele!

 

Michele,

Although there is a basis of fact regarding the hierarchical nature of how the doctorate in counseling is perceived in relation to a doctorate in psychology, it does not take into account how the counseling degree will be utilized by different individuals at different stages of their lives.

Generally, if an indivdual is relatively young, in their twenties, thirties and early forties it would appear to be advantageous to complete doctoral studies in an APA psychology doctoral program. The average time to complete this degree is approximately five years with a number of individuals taking up to ten years to do so. This includes APA approved DL doctoral programs such as the Fielding Institute.

Additional DL and RA doctoral programs in psychology offered by institutions such as Walden and Capella, which takes approximately five to seven years to complete, may result in licensure in a number of states but impose limitations relating to employment opportunities and to licensure in a growing number of states due to their not being APA sccredited. These non APA approved doctoral degrees are also not highly regarded in academia and by colleagues from APA programs.

The advantages of a doctorate in counseling for individuals who are in their later forties and beyond, with muliple family responsibilities, committments and financial obligations are many. Primarily, the counseling profession is currently a licensure based discpline in approximately forty six states (New York is currently in the process of acquiring licensure status). This was not the case ten-thirty years ago thereby limiting the value of the degree for third party reimbursement. Although not recieiving the same level of reimbursement of psychologists, it is a reimbursible profession and the job opportunities are gradually increasing on par with fields such as Social Work.

Furthermore, the time factor to complete a counseling doctorate at a DL program such as Capella, including the residency requirements, is only two-four years! This is a major consideration for those who aspire to obtain a doctorate but cannot sustain the time, money and significant effort that the pursuit of a doctorate in psychology consumes.

In addition, for the individual who plans to retire from their job and is contemplating alternate pathways to engage their crystalized experiences, a doctorate in counseling can be a versatile tool to maintain their employment viability in their fifties and beyond in a multitude of ways that I have noted in this thread (as well as other potential applications). The utilization of this degree in nontraditional areas is based on the motivation and self-directedness of the possessor of this degree

A caveat is in order. When posters, although with good intentions, make generalizations regarding this or any other subject it is based on their experiences or beliefs not necessarily on the needs, goals , capablities, ambition or direction of the other party. It is not that they are inaccurate but are making assumptions without considering the unique dimensions and needs of persons with different objectives.

This situation, although not exactly analgous, reminds me of an acquaintance I had in my mid-twenties who was consumed with completing a doctorate in psychology who intermitently advised me, without my asking, to not waste my time pursing a doctorate. He advised me that it would 'kill" my social life and ability to enjoy myself. Of course this individual went on to complete his APA approved doctorate, became licensed to practice and currently at the age of fifty five, has made a small fortune from his efforts and retired.

In other words, when anyone tells another not to enter a field because it is inundated, which may be fact, or not to take a specific curriculum because it is not highly regarded, but they themselves have not 'practiced what they preach", it should raise a red flag. Each individual is unique and although there are generalized realities that one must consider so to must they factor in their personal needs, motivations, goals, values, worldview and ambition in deciding what direction best meets their future purposes.

 

Good points Simon. Each poster here is providing an individualized experience based on many factors (age, location, personality, etc.). Michele needs look at her own situation and weigh all the information to make a decision. I am pursuing a doctorate that is right for me, for another person going through an APA accredited Psych program may make perfect sense, etc.

I am reminded of the MBA issue. In one of Dr. Bear's (or Bear/ Waltson) earlier guides it talked about how MBA's were dead and he noted those making predictions in the 1990's it would make a come back. Bear finished up with something to the effect of *wanna bet*. Of course the rest is history, MBA's became super hot in the 1990's. Now, they according to some, are cooling off again and much less marketable. So, much of life is a risk. If you had looked at Bear's Guide and said forget the MBA you might have missed an opportunity. If you jumped into an expensive program now you may not reap any reward (at least at the moment).

At any rate, factor in everything of importance to you including those things which are not concrete (desire, intellectual curiosity).

North

 

do what makes sense for yourself, but..

If one figues out what they want to do, usually that is what will be right for that person.
However, each person needs to do their homework. Check the rules in the state they want jobs. Look at the trends in education and training for that profession. Figure out whether the degree is an instrinsic motivation or more of a career move.
I used to work in rehabilitation with people who needed to change careers due to a diagnosable handicapping condition(s). People had all kinds of assumptions about careers and education. The first assignment was always to talk to people in the field, second assignment get the facts about credentialling in that career, from the credentialling body.
Then, look for legitmate career enhancing loopholes and shortcuts.
Simon's comments that making generalizations is hard is correct. The rules in each state maybe different. There may be loopholes in one state. For example. Along the Canadian border in VT there is a shortage of psychologists, mental health counselors, medical doctors, nurses, and alcohol and drug counselors. As a result certain counties have a process to allow medicaid to fund private couselors. The rest of the state requires people needing counseling to go through "preferred providers" who are the mental health agencies.
When I was a student at Fl.St.U. there were a number of ph.d. candidates aged 60 and above. The program made sense for them. I can't say it will make sense for me when I reach that age.
All the best!

 

North broached an interesting pont when he notes in one of his previous postings in this thread, that much of life is a risk.

Although there have been admonishments from one or two posters regarding obtaining a doctorate in counseling, at least one of these indivduals took the risk that they are advising Michele to avoid!

Based on at least one poster's experience, a doctoral degree in this area did not result in a fruitful outcome. However, the point is that he took the risk and when that did not work to his satisfaction, attempted another course of action.

To advise another poster of the realities and problems associated with a profession, counseling in this case, is not the issue. The motives in doing so are totally commendable. However, to base this advise on one's negative experiences without recognition that their experience may not be the next person's, is negating the other parties individuality in taking well thought out and calculated plans that may work for them.

Obviously no one can predict success in a particular field even in the best of circumstances. However, recognition that our experiences do not constitute a generalized fact is of signifcant importance in providing advise to others.