Liberty University

I would be interested in opinions about Liberty's graduate degrees in Religion and Divinity.

Thanks,

Michael

 

Everything I've heard suggests that they're top-notch, and I think their M.Div. is probably closer to ordination-track than any other DL M.Div. available.

Peace,

Tom

 

One of the best available at this time. A few things to keep in mind . . .

First, Liberty is not accredited by ATS (the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, the DoEd-CHEA approved accreditor for graduate schools of theology and divinity schools at universities). This may cause a problem if you want to go on for a D.Min. or other degree at an ATS-accredited seminary (which includes most of the "cadillac" evangelical schools such as Dallas, Fuller, Reformed, Westminster, etc.), but Liberty's degrees are still viewed as very credible and you may still be admitted to any of these programs.

Second, while Liberty is a conservative school, it is fairly tolerant in terms of its distance education programs. I sat in on a modular course there several years ago, and found that there was quite a few liberals present.

Finally, remember that Liberty does have required residencies. I fully support this concept, but remember that you will not be able to do a full master's program without showing up for a week at a time every so often. (The residency requirement differs with each master's program.)

 

For teaching purposes, would it matter if both my masters and doctorate were from a foreign university, such as UNISA, or would I have a better chance of getting a job if the master's was from an American school, such as Liberty?

 

First, in regard to Liberty, remember that we are speaking about an evangelical school. If you want to teach in an evangelical school, you will have no problem with a Liberty degree. However, if you want to teach in many state or secular private colleges/universities, there will be a bias against Liberty based on its largely conservative positions.

As for the question about foreign degrees, I'm sure this will open a can of worms that has not yet appeared here, althuogh many people here are aware that this is my position: If you are American and are looking to teach in an American school, you will always be better off with regionally accredited American degrees. To that effect, many (though not all) foreign degrees can do you much more harm than good. That may seem xenophobic (look it up, kids), but that's the way it is.

 

Steve,

What about a degree from UNISA?

Here is my situation: I would like to pastor and also teach theology/religion. I am Baptist, but I'm moderate, not fundamentalist. I have family and job responsibilities, so an external degree is my only option. In the U.S. it's probably either going to be Liberty or Cal. State--Dominguez Hills, but I can't concentrate in theology at the latter. Overseas my choice would probably be UNISA. Liberty does seem to be tolerant of other viewpoints, but I would be concerned about acceptance by secular colleges and non-fundamentalist seminaries, as you pointed out.

There are no Baptist seminaries near me; in fact, the only non-fundamentalist one near me is Cumberland Presbyterian. So, my teaching options would probably be limited to secular colleges. As for pastoring, most Baptist churches near me don't have set requirements for theological education, but most Baptists in my area are conservative theologically.

So, that's my quandary, if you can call it that.

Any suggestions?

 

Hmmmm... Here's my situation. Maybe you'll see some of yourself in it, maybe not:

I signed on with the M.A. program at California State University, Dominguez Hills with the idea in mind of eventually applying to a residential Ph.D. program in philosophy; I was leaning at the time towards Tulane's interdisciplinary Ph.D. in philosophy and anthropology, but also gave some thought to Vanderbilt's programs in philosophy and religion.

Over time, I started to feel that philosophy as an academic discipline was self-sustaining, claimed that it could resolve too much, and ignored basic human concerns. My attention turned to specific fields within philosophy: ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy of mind, and, eventually, religious philosophy. There I discovered great unlocked theologians like Shankaracharya and Ramanuja, began to more meaningfully appreciate the religious elements of the philosophy of Carl Jung (whose works I had semi-comprehensively studied, albeit in translation, as an undergraduate), and tied it all together to my love of literature. I decied religious scripture was the ideal major for me, since as a field it seemed to address all of the philosophical concerns that had ever really meant anything to me, and I moved on to that. I talked to Steve about applying to the Union Institute, I investigated research doctorates offered by various schools such as the University of Wales-Lampeter, and just found myself generally dissatisfied with the very methodical "outsider" approach taken by religious studies as a field. I didn't want to patronizingly study the Brahma-Sutras; I wanted to inhale them. So I grew tired of religious studies, too, and started to look once again at the other "good dreams" that might prove to be my Real Calling: philosophy again, ethics again, cognitive science, and even linguistics. That's when I became humbled at the idea of approaching most basic metaphysical ideas behind human experience in any comprehensive fashion, and I settled on theology. I enjoy it.

You bring up the ministry question; I haven't ruled out that idea myself, my family being full of Baptist and Methodist ministers, so I investigated the options. The United Methodist Church says that M.Div. equivalency must be demonstrated in three areas: theology, pastoral ministry, and biblical studies. Most other denominations that technically require an M.Div. will also accept similar equivalency standards. And so it goes.

In most Baptist denominations, I don't think an M.Div. is necessarily required; if my memory of the SBC is not addled, you're elected by the congregation or its representatives regardless of your educational credentials. Congregational Baptist churches certainly work that way (although most Baptist churches are deep-down congregational anyway, compared to other denominations).

So I don't know what to tell you. Here are my thoughts:

- If you want to focus on theology in the CSUDH program, you can to a point; half the program will probably consist of extraneous material, but you can take advantage of individualized and/or transferred courses to make the program yours. My own curriculum was broadly humanities-oriented, but my thesis is titled "Your Brother's Blood: An Interdisciplinary Commentary on Genesis 4:1-16."

- I wouldn't recommend the CSUDH program to someone who wants to study theology as opposed to interdisciplinary humanities, since there are so many theology programs available.

- There is no guarantee that any DL M.Div. will fulfill ordination requirements of a denomination that requires an M.Div. for ordination.

- There is no guarantee that any nontraditional doctorate will get you a teaching position.

- That said, I would certainly not be ashamed to hold an M.Div. from Liberty and a Th.D. from UNISA.

One other option I might not have mentioned: Southern Christian University (http://www.southernchristian.edu) offers a 100% online M.Div., and is (to my knowledge) the only regionally accredited school to do so. If you're looking at the M.Div. more in terms of a plus rather than an essential and plan to preach in a denomination where an M.Div. is not necessarily required, that may be a good route to take.

As for UNISA, here's a thought that might make you feel better: Archbishop Emeritus and 1984 Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu earned his bachelor's there in 1954. They're a good school with a solid theology department. If a UNISA doctorate is considered inadequate for a teaching position, it won't be because the academic standards are too low, the requirements too lax, or the theology department too small. It will probably be because it's a South African school and you earned the degree by correspondence. Some folks have used a UNISA doctorate to skyrocket their teaching careers (I can probably find their names, if you're interested); some folks probably haven't. So I don't really know what to tell you.

Good luck.


Peace,


------------------

Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Tom,

Thank you for that reply.

It's remarkable how closely my experience parallels yours. I, too, was interested in philosophy; I was hoping it would help answer life's great questions.

I am a published poet, songwriter, and musician, and, while virtually all of my writing has spiritual overtones and some of it is Christian in theme, I came to the conclusion long ago that this was still not enough for me. I think that's when I felt called to ministry--a pastoral and teaching ministry, as well as a writing and music ministry.

So, in a way, CSUDH would be right for me, considering my diverse interests, but in another way it wouldn't since I'm mainly interested in theology as a way to hopefully help answer those questions about ultimate meaning and reality and in so doing help others to answer those same questions.

BTW, if you go into ministry, would you lean toward the Baptists or Methodists? Why? I have been both Baptist and Methodist, and even Episcopalian, but now I'm leaning toward the Bapptists. Also, I've been strongly influenced by the Quakers.

Anyway, that's where I am presently; the next step will be very important to me, and I'm getting to old to make a wrong decision.

Thanks for your concern; I look forward to hearing from you again.

Michael

 

Nah. Seriously, I admit that I am very provincial when it comes to degrees - some might even say that I'm xenophobic because of my aversion to foreign degrees. However, my perception is that there will always be a question about an American going for a totally external foreign degree, regardless of how credible that degree might be.

As for UNISA, I have no reason to believe that they are not credible. However, I"ve been in this game enough years and have run into enough folks with nontraditional graduate credentials, but have never met anyone with a UNISA degree. That does not mean that it is a bad degree; it does mean that they are sufficiently uncommon here in the States for me to have doubts about them.

I concur with Tom Head - you should certainly check out the programs at Southern Christian University. They are regionally, although not ATS, accredited, and appear quite well designed. Keep in mind that SCU is a Christian Churches/Churches of Christ school, so you will be hit with their doctrines regarding restoration theology, baptismal regeneration, etc.

Do not leave out the secular option. Remember, you can design your own program at schools such as Antioch, Vermont College of Norwich U., etc. (I leave out Goddard intentionally since they tend to be very anti-evangelical and might even have a problem with moderate Baptist beliefs.) I pulled off my grad degrees at two secular schools (Vermont College and The Union Institute) with a pervasively evangelical presuppositional base and never had a problem. The scular schools tend to be fairly expensive, however, so Liberty would be a cheaper and just-as-credible alternative.

The ultimate question is, where do you hope to teach theology/religion? Remember that if you want to teach at a secular school, they will want a secular degree. Also, it's hard to get your foot in teh door of any school to teach these areas if you are not "one of their own." (I never had a problem with this, but remember that I do not teach theology per se, but church-state issues, in which very few people have degrees at all.) The truth is, Liberty is ultimately as good as anywhere else and it is a major university. You may run into secular bias with a Liberty degree as fast as you'll run into evangelical bias with a secular degree, but I recommend being realistic about your chances of getting a teaching gig with any degree in this field.

 

Steve,

I've looked at Southern Christian University's programs; the problem for me there is the very high tuition--$365 per credit hour the last time I checked.

I really don't know what to do. Liberty is about the only American option I can afford. And with the UNISA master's degrees costing less than $1000 dollars, that seems to good to pass up--but I still want to choose the school that would do me the most good as far as getting a teaching position.

If I could be a Methodist--I have trouble with infant baptism and United Methodist polity--I could go to Memphis Theological Seminary about 90 miles away, and the bishop and/or district superintendent would get me a church.

Maybe I'm just not as bright as I think I am.

 

So far, it sounds as if Liberty is the best option, both the most credible and the most affordable.

For what it's worth, I've known a lot of folks who knew "the joy of the Lord" until they studied theology. Then they were introduced to concepts like pre-millenial, post-millenial, a-millenial, anti-millenial, and uncle-millenial (now substitute "millenial" with "tribulational"), infra-lapsarian, supra-lapsarian, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, until they got too hung up with doctrine to remember what God was about.

Try not to sweat the doctrinal issues too much - it leads to an us-versus-them mentality. Besides, everybody is going to hell except you anyway, so have some fun.

By the way, remember that there are exceptions to every rule. I taught at two Fundie schools - Biblical Theological Seminary and the Philadelphia College of Bible Graduate School; those schools are Calvinist and Dispensational, respectively, and I am neither. (Nor have I ever belonged to a church. But I had a great rap - Being a gay Jewish evangelical, my idea of Sunday morning worship is lox, bagels, and the New York Times. Then, if someone tried to pressure me, I would tell them that I was with Calvin on sin, Wesley on salvation, and Luther on grace. Confused the hell out of them.) The question is ultimately how much you know and how good you are at teaching it.

 

Steve,

I know what you're saying about not getting to hung up on doctrine. I've studied theology for 25 years, and doctrine is of course very important to me; still, I believe the only things necessary to Christianity are the resurrection and Christ's "new commandment"--loving God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself.

So, what do you think would be the best way to go--a master's from Liberty and a doctorate from UNISA, or both a master's and a doctorate from UNISA?

 

P.S. I do know the difference between the word "to" and the word "too". I notice I keep making that mistake here; I could blame it on hurrying and not checking for typing errors, but it could also just be a result of too many years of teaching in public schools.

 

Neither. There are two other options that I would favor: (1) a master's and and cortorate from Liberty, or a master's from Liberty and a doctorate from Union. (Yes, I know I'm biased.)

Sorry, but I simply do not endorse UNISA for American students. This is based, in part, on my belief that a doctoral program should have some level of required residency, as well as that a totally external foreign degree earned by an American will always be questioned, even if it is from a credible institution.

As for the doctrinal issue, when I did my Ph.D. at Union I co-presented at a peer day with a fellow learner who was rather high placed in the Unification Church. The Christians reacted with a combination of incredulity that a Moonie could actually pursue a Ph.D. and a gleeful look of hungry anticipation as they prepared to go into evangelism mode. The guy was actually quite brilliant and, while I fully view the U.C. as a cult, it was borne in on me that brilliant folks can exist anywhere. Well, except the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I humorously digress . . .

Remember, truue dialogue and discourse can sometmes best take place with those with whom you disagree. The result is not argument, but dialogue, and you will as much as they will. You don't have to approve of them or their beliefs, but can still treat it as a learning experience. And that is not limited to cultists, but to different doctrinal systems within Christianity. Except Pentecostals. (Alright, gang, I couldn't resist that one.)

 

Steve,

I fully agree with your last paragraph--but no comment on the Pentecostal thing.

Liberty offers a Doctor of Ministry, but I was looking for a Doctor of Theology or Ph.D in Theology. If Liberty offered such, I'd gladly consider that.

I don't see how anyone can afford the Union Institute; how did you? Any suggestions?

Baptist Bible College and Seminary in PA--I believe I have the right school-- now offers a Ph.D in Biblical Studies, but their tuition is also very high, and I don't see how I could afford it. Cost of a program is a major concern for me.

Again, if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to listen.

Thanks,

Michael

 

Steve,

I am curious as to what would constitute a legitmate residency, as this would seem to be relative. For example Union requires 30 days of residency for the Ph.D., while Regent University requires 6 weeks (Ph.D. in Organizational Leadership).

If all other aspects of a doctoral program were equal, would 30 days (or six weeks) of residency, in and of itself, be the criterion in determining whether a doctoral program was legitimate or not?

It is true that foreign degrees earned externally (non-traditionally, distance learning, etc.) will perhaps be questioned by some. This is also true of similar programs in the US (Walden, Nova, Union, Capella, Touro, Jones, etc.). Distance learning is becoming more acceptable, however, there is still a stigma in the eyes of some whether the degree is US or foreign, not because of where the school is located, but because it was earned via distance learning.

Russell

 

Don't sweat it - I insult everyone equally.

Don't hold me to this one, but I believe that Liberty also offers an external Ed.D. However, that would be through the university division as opposed to the seminary division.

By paying tuition out of pocket on a monthly basis. However, remeber that I graduated from Union 10 years ago, and tuition rates at all colleges and universities have increased exponentially (figuratively speaking), way over the rate of inflation. At the time I went through the Ph.D. program, I seem to recall paying out about $700 per month in base tuition while working full time. Yes, it was high, but making monthly payments was also motivational insofar as avoiding the usual slump period students go through in nontraditional programs.

 

Union's residency is actually a minimum of 35 days, but that's splitting hairs.

So how much of a residency is necessary? I have no specific formula. The issue is not the number of days or weeks, but the intrinsic opportunity to have FTF (face-to-face) contact and accountability with other students, faculty, etc.

As far as foreign programs, we should also not lose track of what I believe is the key issue: regional accreditation. In the United States, the "RA factor" is still the ultimate arbiter in determining institutional credibility, whether anyone likes it or not. (And those that do not like it tend to be those who have graduated from an unaccredited program.)

Yes, distance programs have always been questioned by some people - usually those who did traditional programs and who have an "I paid my dues, you should, too" mentality. I'm not sure that I would lump all of the programs in your list together ("Walden, Nova, Union, Capella, Touro, Jones, etc.") - comparing all of them together is like apples-and-oranges since each program has its own personality, they have different residency requirements (if any at all), as well as different learning methodologies and philosophical ideologies, and your list includes both nonprofit and proprietary schools. (And I am universally non-supportive of profit-making colleges and universities. Why? Because I am, that's why. Don't ask me for a rationale, as it's based simply on personal philosophy.)

 

I agree completely. In fact, let's go a step further: I propose that we write a joint letter to Oxford, Cambridge, and la Sorbonne demanding that they establish some credibility by seeking accreditation through one of the six U.S. regional bodies. Do I hear a second?


Peace,

------------------

Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Nope. As much as I believe in US regional accreditation as the "gold standard" (in the US), I also realize that it applies to US schools only.

Asking schools such as Oxford & Cambridge to apply for US regional accreditation would be akin to asking Harvard & Yale to apply for a UK Royal Charter.

I'll go out on a limb and assume that Tom's original post was in jest.....I hope.

Bruce