Let the torture begin!!!

... or at least be sanctioned by Congress....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/ats-ap_politics14nov07,0,5197345.story

So now apparently the Bush administration wants to exempt the CIA from a proposed "ban on torture" being considered in the Congress. Wonderful. One more step down the slippery slope towards complete and total assumption of fascist/totalitarianism by the Bush regime, and irreparable damage to America's reputation for all time. The formal and legalized adoption of torture is a "must have" on the checklist for any totalitarian society.

I used to have a simple rule back in the 70s and 80s as to "who was our friend and who was our enemy" in terms of foreign policy. Those countries that used legalized torture were clearly our enemies, those who did not were clearly our friends. It was so easy back then - Britain, France, Germany, democracies world-wide (non torturing countries) were our friends. Vietnam (South and North), Korea (South and North), Malaysia, Turkey, the Iranian government of the Shah, any government in Egypt, the Soviet Union, and a host of other tin-horn and real dictatorships were clearly our enemies - all of them flagrant torturers!

Now we have met the enemy..... and it is US!

 

By some definition, your political posts constitute torture.

There may be something to your fears but let's not forget the Airborne troops now in trouble for roughing up some Iraqis. Bush is not Kim Il Scum and it's doubtful that we're engaging the sort of torture common to the nations you named.

 

I seem to remember a stroy in Analog magazine, in which torture was originally authorised to obtain information preventing capital crime and ended up being used in cases of tax evasion and jaywalking!

Of course there is a disputed area whereby some practices (e.g. use of 'truth ' drugs and sleep deprivation) may be considered torture in some places but not others.

(However, contray to the opinions of many teenagers, loss of cable TV is not 'cruel and unuusal punishment')

 

I seem to remember a story in Analog magazine, in which torture was originally authorised to obtain information preventing capital crime and ended up being used in cases of tax evasion and jaywalking!

Of course there is a disputed area whereby some practices (e.g. use of 'truth ' drugs and sleep deprivation) may be considered torture in some places but not others.

(However, contrary to the opinions of many teenagers, loss of cable TV is not 'cruel and unuusal punishment')

 

Carl,

Still in the hate the United States first camp?

Can you site any examples of authorized torture by the CIA or the military?

Every case of alleged misbehavior by U.S. personnel that I am aware of has resulted in investigation and prosecution, when warranted.

 

That you know of.

That's the point. In addition to the President's inexplicable refusal to agree not to torture whomever he chooses, we now learn of secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe. You would never know, would you?

Folks, this is very scary stuff and all of a piece with the Administration's "trust us" stance.

Thing is, our constitution was written expressly so that we would not HAVE to trust the President. That's what due process, public trials, constitutional rights, AMERICANISM are all about.

If you claim that we can no longer "afford" these "luxuries" then you are really saying that we can no lnoger afford to be a free and self governing people.

 

Well said.

This crap is ruining the reputation of our country. We're supposed to be the good guys. I hope the next administration can keep that in mind. This one is a lost cause.

 

making people go without sleep...

or making them stand is not torture. Let's be clear on what torture is and is not. The word has been very loosely thrown about lately. I went through worse in basic training....

 

The Administration is creating a system that will allow it to "disappear" any inconvenient person, hold him incommunicado, torture him at will, and then, since it won't want witnesses, kill him and dispose of the body.

This is not hyperbole. History, even recent history, is FULL of examples of governments gradually assuming this sort of horrific power to terrorize large populations. There is nothing to suggest that Americans are somehow "immune" once we abandon our constitutional protections.

Rights are RIGHTS. They are not privileges subject to the whim of the President or anyone else.

Sometimes I think the country lost something when the custom of publicly reading the Declaration of Independence on July 4th died out.

 

Re: making people go without sleep...

If you went through what the undisclosed pictures from Cuba reportedly showed, you need to sue your government.

 

Can you prove this...

You have made an accusation. Now prove it. Otherwise, it is nothing but sensationalistic hype. There is a whole lot of things to show that the USA does not participate in the type of activity you espouse...

 

And another thing...

DTechBA,

I DO agree with you there. Humiliation, offending one's religion, insulting one's government, BURNING or DEFACING KORANS, none of these amounts to "torture" as far as I am concerned.

I am quite upset at the punishments meted out to American soldiers for such acts.

I have said before, I would WILLINGLY deface any reliegious book, even a Torah, if by so doing I could save a SINGLE American soldier's life.

But frankly, I doubt that such acts would be effective.

 

Alright. The why does the President INSIST on being given the right to do these things?

 

Because he hates Muslims.

Why do you think he wants to do "these things", whatever "these things" are. He is trying to win a war and prevent another 9/11. Most people agree that a weakened CIA contributed to allowing 9/11 happen.

If we keep someone awake for three days, or make him listen to Brittany Spears in order to save Americans, then by all means pour me another cup of coffee.

Are we shoving bamboo under fingernails, or beating and starving people to death? I doubt it, but if given the choice between that and another 9/11, what would you choose?

Once again, the Left doesn't have a solution for winning the war, only complaints about the way we are doing it.

 

Once again the right mistakes us for the Soviet Union and does whatever the hell they want, ignoring historical precedent.

I've written my ideas and others' ideas on this board before. I'll make this simple:
This is a battle for hearts and minds. They are winning. We are giving it to them. What we do best is influence people. It's a multibillion dollar industry. We can sell ice cubes to eskimos but we can't get the idea across that freedom/democracy is best for the people.

When you, as a facist, want to influence the general public, what do you do? Torture them or buy a 24 hour propaganda channel named FOX?

 

Re: Re: Let the torture begin!!!

Now I LIKE that response..... haha!

 

Nope.... I love this country so much I can't bear to see it held hostage by a gang of corporate rapists, child murderers, torturers, and greed-fueled scum who don't respect basic human rights unless you have a $100K income or better.....

 

There you go bashing the Kennedys again.

 

huh...

Wow, now we are resorting to what undisclosed pictures reportedly showed. Our standards of proof have really dropped around her. Have you seen them or are you just repeating hearsay you heard from some hate the USA web sites? I have actually read some stories from people who said they were well treated there but I guess we can discount them. Of course, there is an ambulance chasing lawyer trying to sue for money but he has no proof. Guantanamo has been repeadtedly visited by the IRC and the worst they can come up with is long periods of standing, loud music or other crud like that.

I have read what the vapid anti-Bush people claim happened in Guantanamo. Even if those tales are true I am still waiting to see where there was some torture. A woman allegedly wore a bikini during an interview and wiped what she claimed was blood on a person. Tacky, but not torture.

Another claimed someone was made to stand until he defecated on himself. Problem is no one backed up that claim even after it was investigated. There were inadvertant dropping of Korans and the like. I have dropped Bibles when tossing a cell but not on purpose and no one called it torture.

Give me a break....

 

Who are these people...

We live in a country where you can get multi million dollar settlements for lawsuits with little or no merit and you say this? Try visiting some countries where this is true and then come back and tell us about it.....