Lack of Recognition

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by paynedaniel, Jun 5, 2002.

  1. paynedaniel

    paynedaniel New Member

    It seems as though lack of recognition may well be the only downfall for some unaccredited schools. As far as academically strenuous programs, some (though not many) unaccredited schools beat many accredited schools. If they don't beat them, at least they match them. I really do not understand why more employers do not take each school listed on a resume on a case by case basis (except for the headache that might ensue). Educational method is too subjective, and learning styles are too diverse to have too stringent a set of rules by which to accept or reject schools off hand. What do you think?
  2. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    As you may be aware, the mast majority of unaccredited schools are very substandard. There are probably a handful of exceptions that Bill has pointed out. As an employer do you set up the process for 3000 proven programs or the 5 or 6 exceptional but unproven schools? Seems pretty clear huh?:D
  3. RJT

    RJT New Member

    I agree with the Thread-Starter. There are many fine non-RA Schools. I refuse to use the word unaccredited any longer, rather, I utilize Legally State Liscened Post Secondary Educational Istitutions. Let's save the word Unacredited for the illegal schools that can not secure a state Liscene. Also, many HR pofessionals, myself included, do understand which schools offer practical instruction vs. degree mill. Rule of thumb, if a school requires genuine couse work with timed/proctered testing (good), has RA professors (good), is reviewed by state audits and voluntarally conducts RA on-site audits (good), makes the student do a detailed APA research project and paper (good). No work, just $$ than Diplama (very bad, if not horrid). I use the "sweat equity annology" If you have to work hard for a Degree then and only then are deserving of it, either if it's RA or Legally State Liscenced.

    (PS outside of Bob Jones U, almost all state liscended scools are illegal in OR, which I feel is utterly unconstitutional, but let they lawyers work it out; so if you plan on using your degree in OR go DETC or RA, else you can go RA/NA, SL, and lesser quality Theological Exemption Schools)

    Read the attached for some positive insight:

    Good State Liscenced Legal US Schools:
    California Coast
    Central State U (CA)
    Berne U
    Orion U

    Good DETC:

    Columbia Southern
    Andrew Jackson

    Good RA:
    Jones Int'l.
    Atlantic Intercontential University

    All our just my opinion, good luck in your pursual.

    PS-Stay away from Hamilton U., Trinity College & U, Almedia (FL), they offer NO COURSE WORK, or WORK WHAT SO EVER, and are NOT STATE LISCENCED.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm glad you indicated that the comments you made are your opinion. Because they're certainly not supported by the facts in evidence.

    An HR professional should learn how to spell "license" and "diploma." Even if his/her degree is from a state-"licensed" "diploma" mill. Not that K-W is a diploma mill, of course.
  5. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that's right. The number of non-accredited schools that match RA is small, but they do exist. A tiny handful may do more than that, and actually outshine most RA programs, at least for certain individual students in very specialized situations.

    Then why bother to have degrees at all? If everyone is going to be examined in detail and their knowledge and skills assessed in depth, then what does a degree add to that?

    I agree with you in theory, but I don't think that its realistic in practice.

    Employers don't have the time or the ability to search each applicant's soul. They can't subject every applicant to a whole series of examinations. Instead, they have to look for applicants that are already certified.

    That's what degrees are: educational certifications.

    And those certifications are only as credible as the institution that did the certifying. So how do schools demonstrate their own credibility and, by extension, that of the graduates they certify?

    Accredited schools are schools that are themselves certified. In the case of regional accreditation, a school is certified by the other accredited schools in its region. In the case of specialized accreditation, the certification usually is performed by the respective professional associations.

    None of this means that a non-accredited school is *necessarily* substandard. But if we have no way of knowing one way or another, then their degrees no longer fulfill their function of certifying the knowledge and skills of their graduates.

    I think that good non-accredited schools work best in specialized situations where either:

    a) There is an alternative way of certifying graduates. Non-accredited law schools tend to work if their graduates have success passing the bar exam. We see this quite a bit here in California. The bar exam provides the credibility, not the law degree.

    b) In cases where degrees are used within communities that are already familiar with the school. Bob Jones has some success among theologically conservative Christians. Hsi Lai University works among Buddhists in California.

    I see little downside for a religious seminary in being non-accredited, if the purpose of that seminary is to prepare candidates for the clergy in the church that owns and runs the seminary.

    But this implies that successful non-accredited schools will usually be niche players. They will have less and less success as they send graduates out into the wider community.
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Would you care to back-up that assertion with some factual research? Or is it just your opinion?

  7. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Re: Re: Lack of Recognition

    This is a correct and good statement.
    I spent two years at a residential educational facility, specifically for theological training. It was intense, hard, frustrating, rewarding, etc. I found the classes to be as worthwhile and educational as any I took at college. Oh yeah, this school is absolutely non-accredited.
    Well, to be fair, the don't offer degrees. They do not claim to be a degree-granting institution. In fact, they don't even charge for the program (other than some minimal fees for materials - I think it was $50 a term, 8 terms a school year).

    Having said all that. The whole two years would be absolutely useless in just about any environment. The exception is if you are looking for a ministry position within my particular denomination.

    This is a program that serves little use in the academic world, but serves its graduates well in their little world. I made some great contacts and learned quite a lot. I value my time there.

    BTW, I am also pursuing an MA in Christian Studies at an RA university. So I am trying to play it both ways....:)

    Anyway, it was my best choice at the time, I benefited from it, but also recognize its limitations.

    Sorry for rambling, guess I am in a sharing mood tonight...

  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Re: Lack of Recognition

    Are you Church of Christ? I had a friend attend one of the preaching schools. He was a pastor for a short time and then enlisted in the army as a Chaplain Assistant. Unfortunately during that time he became invovled in new age interests (subscribed to New Age magazine), used to wear his Masonic buckle to Church knowing it caused concern to some members, and just prior to getting out of the army left his wife. The guy was quite bright and very into Church of Christ theology (at least as far as explaining it). Hank Hanegraaf used to irritate this guy with something he said (possibly refering to CofC as Cambellites).
    He even once called the Bible Answer Man to contend with Hank H.

    I am wandering so I better close.

  9. Neil Hynd

    Neil Hynd New Member

    Well spotted, Rich,

    But then some people do suffer from disorders such as dyslexia or finger trouble when typing.

    Or maybe you don't recognise those either ?

    As medical conditions or anything else ..... even typos !!!

  10. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    I think two seperate new i.d.s in the last week have appeared that are "H.R." professionals and claim to earn over $100,000 a year, but can not use basic english or spell words my 12 year old can. Both are writing in support of substandard unaccredited schools. While it is totally anecdotal, the people I have met that earn $100,00+ a year tend to be able to spell and write.
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    However, and without a shred of evidence to support it, Neil Hynd suggests it's a medical condition and chides me for not recognizing it. Without any such evidence, I'm inclined to accept a more simple conclusion: the person is unable to use written English. (Alternate hypothesis: the person is choosing to write in this fashion.)

    It is normally irrelevant to seize upon a person's typos in these threads. However, when that person makes claims about his/her intelligence, education, earning power, etc., and does not support those claims, we're left with what he she does provide. I'm more than willing to accept what RFT provides, and to draw conclusions about the veracity of it. But what he provides belies even the simplest claims he makes.
  12. cdhale

    cdhale Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of Recognition

    Oh No!!! I am outted (not sure that is a word...)

    Yes, I am a missionary for Churches of Christ. However, I must say up front that I am probably not a very "traditional" Campbellite...:D

    Actually, I really like alot of what Campbell and Stone had to say 200 years ago, thought I wouldn't agree with everything they said (I figure that is only fair -they wouldn't agree with everything I say, either).

    I tend to be a little more open, or less hateful than the reputation that Churches of Christ have earned over the years. I honestly believe that most members of COC are starting to open up. I pray it is so. It is tragic that we have cut ourselves off from the bulk of Christianity.


    thanks for giving me the opportunity to share...

  13. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Hey they could be inginears, its' not that wee cain't spall good, its' just that we perfer hold a peacful coexistints with the inglish langage!.

    But, if "they" (sic) are not inginears, their is know excuse!

  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    That's "piecefull." Get it right. ;)
  15. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Lack of Recognition

    Hey Bruce, since I agreed with the remarks of Daniel's that you are challenging, I'll assume that your challenge was directed to me as well.

    Sure it's an opinion. But I think that it is a defensible opinion.

    I have already given a number of examples of CA-approved schools that I consider RA quality:

    National Test Pilot School. Find me an RA school that duplicates this program. Aeronautical engineering programs? But they don't address flight test and evaluation nearly as heavily. ERAU? They stress airline operations.

    Keck Graduate Institute of Applied Life Sciences. They are already a member of the Claremont colleges consortium and apparently their initial degrees are offered jointly with the RA (and even prestigious) Claremont Graduate University.

    The Institute of Buddhist Studies has a similar arrangement with Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union, offering both its own CA-approved degrees as well as degrees jointly with the RA GTU.

    These three (and a few others perhaps) represent the "ivy league" of the CA-approved world. I think that credible arguments can be made that they match RA standards.

    I saw a story in the SF Chronicle on Monday about 'RNA interference' or 'gene silencing'. Viruses work by inserting their own DNA into the host animal's genome, and using the foreign genes to order up the production of more viruses. Well, it seems that a natural defense against this process is the evolution of still other genes that produce RNA that smothers these virus inserted sites when they appear, in effect turning the alien genes off.

    While this has happened naturally for countless millions of years, it was only discovered in 1998. Suddenly it is one of the hottest subjects of biotech research. The hope is that custom designed RNAs can be crafted to shut off genes associated with many virus diseases.

    Well, apparently the first successful trial of that process was just reported in the May issue of the journal 'Nature Biotechnology'. In this experiment, a team of researchers led by John Rossi at the Beckman Research Institute of the City of Hope (in LA county) used interfering RNA to slow the replication of HIV in host cells. In doing so, Rossi and his group beat out a team at MIT (led by Nobel prize winner Phillip Sharp) who reported positive results in the 6-3-02 on-line edition of 'Nature Medicine' (it will appear in the July print edition of that journal). He also beat out a group at UC San Francisco whose leader Jay Levy says of gene silencing, "this thing is big".

    The relevance of this news to this thread? The City of Hope only received its initial accreditation from WASC in 2001. Prior to that it was CA-approved. (City of Hope, with an enrollment of 33, remains the smallest school that WASC accredits.)

    I want to emphasize something very strongly though. Though I do believe that non-accredited schools can operate at an RA standard, that equivalence can't simply be assumed without evidence.

    If a school is not accredited, the burden of proof falls squarely on THEM to demonstrate their credibility in some other way.

    And even if they can do this somehow, that alternative demonstration of credibility will only work in communities that are already acquainted with the school and with its particular argument. There will still be a serious acceptability/utility problem even in the case of good non-accredited schools. For that reason, they probably are not good choices for most students.
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Re: Re: Re: Lack of Recognition

  17. RJT

    RJT New Member

    The approach to going RA/Licsenced really depends on your life situation. In my case I had earned over 100 RA credits at Bucks County Community College and Philadelpia University. Howver, I still would be required to take 12 courses to graduate. I couldn't transfer to another RA school becuse my BCC credits were earned in 1982, so I'd loose them. A Quality Liscenced School, like Kennedy-Weste4rn allowed me to earn credit for life experience, which I feel as a professional, is very valid. My course load was gratly reduced to five classes. I statrted in April and I have one more class left. Then I have to do my Thesis (on my HR interest), and I GRADUATE. So again it depends on your life situation. If I was 25, I'd go the RA route. But in my case the school will not sell a potential employer, it will be my resume, and the fact that I was motivated and perserved, and graduated. At 35+ yeas old, it's much more difficult to edure years of going parttime (especially if the cedits earned approach 100 or more). Oh yes, I feel that I've earned it. When I get my KWU Diplama, I will gladly display in my office, in a expensive Josten's frame.

    By the way I do not feel that taking a CLEP, is any bteer than completing a course at KWU. Besides I have to study harder.

    Food for Thought ... I am open to discussion, not arguments or insults. This is again, all my opinion, and opf course does not apply to OR. :D
  18. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    One thing I like about DegreeInfo is that I keep learning new things. As an ex Bucks County/Philly resident I had never heard of Philadelphis U until now. I looked up their web site and it appears at first glance to be a vocational school, but could find no reference to accreditation except for a couple of professional accreditations. Can you enlighten me on this.

    Also: I see a lot of critictism of your spelling -- what I do for some posts is to type my input in a word processer program, do a spell check, then copy and paste.
  19. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    From Middle States site

    Philadelphia University Website: >Legend<
    Address: School House Lane Henry Avenue
    Philadelphia , PA 19144 USA
    Phone: 215 9512700 Fax: 215 9512569
    Administrator: Dr. James P. Gallagher, President
    CAO: Dr. Carol S. Fixman, Vice President for Academic Affairs
    Degrees: A B C M
    Type of Institution: Comprehensive Institutional Sponsor: Private (Non-Profit)
    Adjustment Enrollment: 2663 Headcount 3316
    First Accredited Year: 1955 Last Accredited Year: 2001 via P
    Decennial Review: 2005-06 Periodic Review Report Due: 6/1/2011
    Branch Names: Affiliation:
  20. Changed Name

    A retired coworker of mine graduated from this school back in the 60's. It was know as Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science. They were big in the fashion design arts and got a broader perspective. The name change was one of those like Beaver College to Arcadia... They wanted to be know for more than just Philadelphia Textile.




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