Isn't a DL doctorate a waste of time?

I think some do. I would be in favor of this. Maybe a CAGS (certificate of advanced graduate studies).

 

Capella awards a CAGS upon the completion of doctoral course work before the comp exams.

Shawn

 

I don't think doctoral programs should be admitting ANY student whom they don't think is likely to finish (that's the purpose of screening applicants in the admissions process in the first place). I would be suspicious of any doctoral program whose graduation rate is always below 50%. That means they're either routinely admitting students who are not qualified (Are they giving these students false hopes about finishing the program? Are they just milking these students of their $$$ knowing that they can't finish their studies?) or they're just artifically trying to lower their graduation rates to make it appear that their program is "competitive" and "tough." Either way, I would think that there's something very wrong if the success rate stays at no higher than 50% as you suggest...

 

I believe that many doctoral programs at many institutions often have a graduation rate of less than 50%. Here is some data from the Council of Graduate Schools. This data reflects general graduation rates over a 7 year period.

3 4.5%
4 10.5%
5 22.5%
6 36.1%
7 45.5%

Even after 7 years less than 50% of the PhD classes are graduating. It's a tough thing to do. The success rate of climbing Mount Everest is only 19%. It's a similar kind of thing; many attempt it and few succeed. I don't think that it's dishonest to allow people to try to climb Everest or to attempt a PhD. If you screened them too heavily, you might screen out those who will surprise you by making it.

 

Some do. CAGS is sometimes offered. Sometimes tuition refunds are offered. Sometimes students are allowed to finish, etc.

However, the problem is that the graduation rate from some of these DL doctoral programs are withheld from students at the beginning of their programs; and the graduate rate can't easily be derived because the program is so massive; informed consent is one of the foundations of human subjects protection, so you can see the hypocrisy of running a doctoral program that starts out without an solid ethical foundation.

Yes, of course, the program should be academically rigorous, which implies long periods of time, but the majority of that is purely subjective, especially at the dissertation stage. Moreover, the Ph.D. is a specialist who really hasn't been tested outside of his own narrow specialty; so when you ask a bunch of specialists who are outside the dissertation to comment on a dissertation (read nonspecialists), they really don't know what they are talking about and their influence turns the dissertation into generalist drivel. Nonspecialists who don't know what they are talking about can insert meaningless academic rigor into a doctoral process, and actually turn the research into useless work; this sort of prevention mechanism is common in DL doctorate programs and runs up the fraud / felony count as increased tuition payments.

 

Are these graduation rates from those who have started dissertations? I believe 50% is graduation rate of those who are allowed to started dissertations.

The "kill" percentage is at least 75% if you look at everybody who was admitted to all doctoral programs. My opinion is that among DL doctoral programs, the "kill" percentage is much higher, perhaps 90% or above; that is, of the people who are marketed and sold the DL doctoral dream, cradle to grave, 10% or less actually have degrees conferred. Moreover, I imagine that the DETC schools are going to be somewhat worse than 10% graduation, because the operators of those schools think they have something to prove...

 

Are you saying this [Nonspecialists who don't know what they are talking about can insert meaningless academic rigor into a doctoral process...is common in DL doctorate programs] is common in DL doctorate programs but not in non-DL programs?

 

The thing you do not mention here is the fact that the people signing up for these doctoral programs are not bumpkins. These are usually people who have master's degrees and are thus familiar with higher education. It's also a well-known fact that doctoral programs are tough and many don't make it through. You talk as though these are naive people buying snake oil to cure a disease. I suggest that most of these people know what they are getting into. I also suggest that the low graduation rate is often due to the fact that people willingly drop out of the program due to its rigor. I don't think there is anything criminal about allowing them to attempt a doctorate.

Now if they are being promised one thing, paying their money and then the rules are being changed, that's criminal. I seriously doubt that this is being done.

 

Good question... In many non-DL doctoral programs, the department heads and academic deans wouldn't dare try to comment on the content or methodology of a dissertation, because they are (self) aware of their own limitations; they leave such matters up to the dissertation committees. For example, "research committees" that try to comment on the content of dissertations from all psychology / business / education / counseling sub-disciplines are just wasting time fulfilling their narcissistic fantasies and turning the research output of the school into useless crap... In sum, let NASA launch rockets and let McDonald's flip hamburgers.

 

You are free to believe what you wish to believe... I truly wish that all your dreams come true. May you dream of rainbows, ice cream cones, and ponies... At least until you wake up.

 

Dave, you are the Simon Cowell of DegreeInfo. Often nasty and usually right!

 

Thank you for your kind words. They are appreciated...

 

Im a Civil Servant for the Navy, most of my peers are Veterans with only HS edu. While a degree will not hurt, advancement in my line of work is all about ability, or better yet perception of ability. In my case Im just addicted to taking classes, addicted to reaching that goal.

 

I guess I will have to disagree here. Doctoral programs vary - some are extremely difficult to get in to, but graduate a high percentage of those that are admitted. Others are easy to get in to, but tough to graduate from.

DL programs have the added reality of student's simply deciding to depart - either due to time or economic reasons.

My experience at Nova Southeastern's DBA program is instructive. In the 1990's most attrition I saw was self inflicted. Occasionally, students were dropped for low grades. More often students completed their course work and simply didn't or couldn't get a dissertation going. Today, as NSU moves towards AACSB they are enforcing a tighter time limit on student completion of dissertation work.

My thought is that doctoral programs that choose to "weed out" students, should do so early in the program. The presence of early qualifying exams can serve this role.

R Andy