Is there redemption for ACI ???

Not at all, Bill. I have great respect and admiration for Calvin as well, and believe that some of his adherents have taken his suppositions farther than he himself did.

As to Trinity and Liverpool, to be frank, I don't know exactly what the scenario is. I spoke with the person who was instrumental in obtaining the Liverpool association, who shared with me that this was never intended to circumvent US accreditation, but was an attempt to bring credibility for theie non-US students. This individual serves in a full-time faculty position at a RA seminary, but also works with Trinity. He is also involved (serving on the accreditation committee) in Trinity's attempt at achieving accreditation with a USDoE/CHEA recognized agency. Several observations are certain:

1. I do not consider Trinity a mill per se. Their work load and course requirements do not lack substance, and as you know require a good bit of work.

2. I do understand how the average seminary student could be misled by the advertising of Liverpool accreditation, or now Christ Church accreditation. It has been my observation that many people never delve beyond the word "accreditation." When they see/hear the word, they think it is what it states, "accredited," not understanding the intracacies of accreditation. So in this regard one could be misled.

Is this intentional on Trinity's part? I do not know. If it is, then I agree with you that the practice is un-Christian, unethical, deceptive, fraudulent and wrong. But it could be that Trinity is sincerely attempting to provide theological training for those in ministry who cannot dislocate to pursue further studies. I want to hope for the latter.

 

If Trinity truly wishes to embrace the virtue of truthfulness ,could Trinity not say ,( since, as you saw this week, the Liverpool claim fooled even a DTS THM , so imagine the many other confused ones) :

"We are NOT accredited" ?

 

Indeed, but the fact remains that Trinity is accredited--by NAPNSC. What they could do is say "We are NOT regionally accredited."

 

A more accurate statement would be something like "We are not accredited by any agency recognized by the US Department of Education or CHEA".

Just saying "not regionally accredited" might mislead some people into thinking that NAPNSC is recognized national accreditation like DETC, TRACS, etc.


Bruce

 

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Well, guess there's just nothing Trinity can do to stop confusion!. They can only go on saying:

"we are fully NATIONALLY accredited by NAPNSC although NAPNSC is not yet government approved ((to which the prospective student says 'well, that sounds OK, I don't much like what the gov does anyway, and as long as Trinity is NATIONALLY ACCREDITED it must be OK)) , AND we further have GLOBAL accreditation and WORLDWIDE recognition for a mere $225 extra through The University of Liverpool ((to which the prospective student says 'Wowie, now that really sounds impressive', probably the UofL will sort of award the degree too , GLOBAL accreditation just imagine that!)) BUT, Trinity continues, IF you need regional accreditation then you may wish to look at another program" ((to which the student says, 'wonder what regional accreditation is? I guess NATIONAL accreditation and GLOBAL accreditation must be better than RA since they geographically include all those regions-right? Gee I wonder if in 5, 10, or 20 years I might need RA too, just don't know, probably I wont, cause just look at the Trinity catalog and all those success stories, well I guess no one really needs RA.)) "!

Russell, you seem to be unconvinced that Trinity deceives. Here' a few quotes from my copy of the catalogue,

"Trinity provides "a world-class, accredited education...."(WORLD CLASS)??
"Liverpool's support will be widely recognized" WIDELY RECOGNIZED??)...a quality accredited education"..."(ACCREDITED??)accredited by the University of Liverpool"( NOT IN THE UK SENSE) (this is stated on diploma).. "higher education with an unparalleled standard of excellence"(UNPARALLELED??)

No hyperbolic, truthbending , deceptive claims here? But if trinity has "accredited education" and "wide acceptance"then why did the Oregon ODA inform trinity's dean that it was unlawful to assert a Trinity degree as a qualification for public office or secular employment?

What could they say since they ARE accredited ?

They could say, "we've been fooling you so far, but now know that our accreditation is not generally accepted and is a joke to other schools which are more honest than we."

 

They could say, "There's a fool born every minute, and step up because this is your minute..."

Wes

 

I am, Bill. While I have no vested interest in Trinity, either pro or con, I don't know that the intent of this school is to intentionally deceive prospective students.

The four people I am acquainted with who are associated with Trinity (part-time Trinity faculty, who have RA doctorates, and teach full-time at RA seminaries) are not deceptively motivated. Having spoken with them regarding this very issue, they encourage those who want a degree for teaching, or as a foundation for further studies to go USDoe/CHEA recognized. But they are aware that many in full-time ministry will never be able to go this route--especially at the master's and doctoral level.

**I am not a Trinity student.
**I have a RA doctorate.
**So this is not an infomercial for Trinity.

I am not convinced, however, that everyone associated with Trinity is deceptive or fraudulent.

1. Will a Trinity degree have broad utility? Probably not.
2. Is it accepted for transfer, for admission, etc., at USDoE/CHEA schools? For the most part, no. No more so than other schools without USDoE/CHEA recognized accreditation.
3. Have Trinity's boasts of accreditation (Liverpool, NAPNSC, CC) confused some? No doubt about it.

But again, I am not convinced that it was the design of some evil empire, to subtly, deceptively, sneakily, conivingly, and for the sole purpose of "filthy lucre," lure unwary students into enrolling in their program of study.

If I am wrong, I stand to be corrected. And if proven wrong, without hesitation will confess so.

In the mean time, let us move forward.

 

Trinity seems pretty convinced that they will achieve accreditation as was Dr. Montogmery so it will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months. They appear highly organized and have two physical plants including museum and ampitheater in Albuquerque. They have been holding regional seminars for a while (like Capella et al). I have a suspicion they will achieve candidacy. If there programs hold up to scrutiny, they are further ahead in terms of the bricks & mortar (ie two campuses) than Walden, Capella, etc.

Having said that, I think MDS is appalling and we all know what it looks like. The Liverpool thing was advertised initally in a way on the Trinity web site which made it look like *accreditation* which it was not. Even Liverpool said it meant nothing other than they thought the programs were okay (ie no acceptance outside). It would be the same use as if KWU got South Dakota U to give them recognition. On top of that Trinity had a graduation at Liverpool not to long ago and unless I misread what was said it apeared they got a side hall to hold it in (ie the grads did not walk with the U of Liverpool folks). I wonder if Liverpool got tired of all the inquiries. I also have some concerns about some of the things BLD posted about his short academic experience with Trinity which did not come across as stellar.

I wish them well and I would guess they will achieve candidacy. If they ever get RA then the Christ Church things may be more interesting. Still would not mean much other than to say your *real accredited school* was also recognized by a British University (kind of like some of those side accreditations/memberships some schools get).

North

 

'i don't know if the intent of this school is to intentionally deceive.'
(Russell)



trinity says " our education is accredited and world-class , which is accepted broadly world wide"

I think this is intentionl deception.
(Bill)

as you say, let's move on!

 

Bill,

Consider the following scenario:

If one Trinity degree was "accepted" in several major countries of the world, and if the person "accepting" the degree weighed 350 lbs., could Trinity not legitimately claim to have degrees "accepted broadly and world wide?"

Broadly: 350 lbs.
World wide: Several major countries.

You know I'm just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Russell

My old bones are tired as my son had me out today pulling the 350 out of my '74 Blazer and installing cam and heads. Didn't think any thing would give a chuckle...but you did.

Thanks for that and for being a pal


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I'm willing to believe that LBU has only the best intentions and strives to provide the best programs it possibly can. But frankly, I'd be less troubled if they said just that they had not applied for accreditation from a secular agency -- and left it at that. Referring to "full institutional approval" from ACCTS clouds the issue.

Further perusal leads to these observations and questions...

1. ACCTS does say that it "has been founded as an approval agency for those schools which for various reasons may choose not to affiliate with a regional or other professional accrediting agency." OK, so here they make a distinction between accreditation and ACCTS approval.
2. However, further down the page ACCTS says "The Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools offers an alternative to other forms of accreditation and in some cases, a supplementary recognition in the case of schools with state or professional accreditation." Here they refer to ACCTS approval (somewhat obliquely) as another form of accreditation.
2a. On another ACCTS page, not obviously linked to from the home page but discovered through Google, they present a Preamble which clearly states that AACTS's main purpose is accreditation: "In its work of accreditation, the Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools is primarily an institutional accrediting agency having realized the need of such an agency among a large segment of Christian Colleges, Universities, and Theological Schools." See http://www.accts.cc/preamble.htm
3.ACCTS lists none of the schools it approves.
3a. Googling for "approval from the Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools" turns up only the LBU credentials page mentioned above.
3b. Googling for "Association of Christian Colleges and Theological Schools" turns up the ACCTS preamble page and two schools that state they are accredited by it: Midwestern Baptist Bible Seminary and California Pacific School of Theology. Outside LBS, these two schools, ACCTS's own Web site, and a couple of directory listings, I can find no other mention of ACCTS online.
4. ACCTS does not say who founded it, or when, or where. (LBU refers to it as located in Centerville, Virginia, but the ACCTS page says it can be contacted care of Dr. Richard Beck at a PO box in Paducah, Kentucky.)

 

I stand corrected, Kristin.

 

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Good work Kristin!

Now straighten Russell out re his wayward Wesleyanism and aberrant Arminianism.

.

 

Russell,

Don't feel bad about missing ACCT's preamble. It seems very much as if they don't much want it to be found.

I used www.archive.org and found a couple older versions of the site. These had several links, just below the logo and name, to Affiliation: Associate Status, Doctrinal Statement, Evaluation Criteria, Levels of Membership and Cost, Mission Statement, Preamble, Procedures for Candidacy.

In the current version of the site, none of these links are there. Seems as if some of the old pages are still there, such as http://www.accts.cc/affiliation.htm and http://www.accts.cc/levels_of_membership_and_cost.htm

A lot of Web sites get rearranged from time to time (and even more should be) -- but in this case, it seems as if the only change is to remove links to information, to make it harder to find out about the group's purpose and work.

Bill -- I'm not even going to try discussing Wesleyanism and Arminianism. I'm still flummoxed by Vatican II.

 

Thanks for being gentle, Kristin. Bill would have had you "straighten me out."

 

What a pleasure it has been to read all the polite and clever and charming communications in this thread. Perhaps there is something to this, as we French say, "turn the other chic" business.

--Jean

 

Indeed there is, John.

Are you back home in California? How was the trip?