Is there redemption for ACI ???

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

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I thought if I caused Trinity enough grief they'd bribe me with an honorary doc


and, you are wrong about LBU


and, I might not speak to you any more!

and watch your back!

 

How about a second cousin?

Here's a really good one you guys might have missed.

Did you know that Trinity has a school that is their second cousin, known as Master's Divinity School that can be found on the web at http://www.mdivs.edu?
This was another school that I looked at, along with Trinity, that I turned down to take the ABS courses.

Maybe spending the past 12 years of my career teaching middle school and hanging out with the football team for some of those years has rotted crucial nerve connections in my brain.

I am impressed in your apparent theological prowess that Dr. Frey would indeed send you a personal invitation to complete your degree. Did it come with an invitation to be ordained by the Universal Life Church? *grin* Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh to the folks at ULC, my late iguana, the Rev. Yoshi, will roll over in his grave.

Please don't take offense at the ordination thing, just trying to jump into the joke circle.

 

Re: How about a second cousin?

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Hi Rex

No offence taken..cute!

We (ie North, I, and the Arminian heretic) think you are now right on target and we admire your determination to do things right!

Yes we also discuss Masters but not right before or after dinner.

 

Re: How about a second cousin?

Rex,

Do a search in the forum archives and you will find numerous comments about MDS. North is especially fond of this institution's six course requirement for the Doctor of Practical Ministry.

MDS is more closely related than a second cousin, more like a wayward sibling.

And yes, we will accept you into the "joke circle," as you call it. When one confesses to the academic error of one's ways, begins to make restitution, one then has the privilege to employ pun, sarcasm, jest, and the like in one's postings. As you can see, Bill and I confessed long ago.

The Arminian
(Whose only heretical leaning is conversing with certain proponents of Calvinism)

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

If you peruse the following web link, www.lbu.edu/credents.htm , you will find that the word used is approval. No mention is made of accreditation. The ACCTS website www.accts.cc does not use the word accreditation either, rather, that they offer approval of schools which meet their criteria.

In conversation just last week with Neal Weaver, LBU president, I asked him this very question. His response was that LBU made no claims of being accredited. LBU did have ACI accreditation for a brief period, but like Bethany, this was dropped in '98. He stated that after obtaining ACI accreditation it began to be noticed that many of the ACI schools were not of the type/quality with which LBU wanted to be associated with--so they dropped ACI accreditation. Basically, the same scenario which Chancellor Shuemake described regarding Bethany. IMO, LBU is to be commended for dropping their association with ACI and not claiming accreditation. They are clearly upfront about their status and encourage prospective students that if they need a degree for purposes of employment/certification/licensure (e.g., a Ph.D. to teach at a RA school), then LBU is not the place to earn that type of degree.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

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1) If one looks at the mission statement of ACCTS he will there see that agency posturing itself as an accreditor by calling others, "other forms of ACCREDITATION." While the intent to claim status as an accreditor may not have been there, the grammatics and semantics easily justify that inference. Walston considers ACCTS an unreconized ACCREDITING agency (41).

2) If one looks at page 10 of the LBU catalogue (now on line) one finds the category "credentials and ACCREDITATION". What is the purpose , then, of entitling that section so, were LBU now avoiding all appearances of claims of accreditation? In that section ACCTS is listed and in that section no disclaimer of NOT being accredited is made! Seems there might yet be residual, uncontrolled desires to be imprecise.

3) If one looks at the, dated admittedly, Walston Guide, 129, he there finds Rick's assertion that Rick personally was told by Fred Moody, at least then Dean of LBU, that the school was accredited by ACSI. Rick goes on to explain that ACSI actually accredits only up to high school level. Walston also asserts that LBU at that time at least claimed accreditation as well from ACCTS.

If "approval" is all that LBU now claims of course that is good. But it appears that there is yet some cause for confusion.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

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Yes I know of other religious schools, unaccredited, which also encourage prospective students to determine for themselves if they really need accredited degrees.

The realities are that unless the student is adept at foreseeing the future, he knows not what it holds. Nor does the student frequently grasp the genuine limitations of unaccredited degrees or know how to research such as the existence of such forums as this evinces. What is needed is not a brief catalogue statement, but a lengthy exposition re the limitations of unaccredited degrees. I think Christian charitableness and concern for God's people obligates a Christian school to do this.

One might wonder how many pay their money for and are stuck with degrees which later do not meet their needs because four years earlier as a prospective students they made uninformed decisions to enroll in a school -which school by the way knew very well that it was not the best place to assure the future utility of degrees. I was told two days ago by one who would know that his unaccredited religious school in Indiana now enrolls 11, 000 students. How many of these remain misled and are destined for disappointment?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

Well, actually it is now 10,999. Unless you have been readmitted.

Several comments of LBU's status:

1. The school has been in a continual process (much like Bethany and other non-RA schools) to provide a higher level of integrity to the programs. As in all processes this takes time, and all sticking points are not immediately resolved.

2. Under the "credentials/accreditation" page on the website, this was begun when LBU had the ACI accreditation, which they dropped in 98. I agree that perhaps the term "accreditation" should be dropped.

3. Neal Weaver, LBU President, told me only last week via phone that LBU is not accredited. I don't know what Fred Moody told Rick Walston, but as in many institutions people made statements, comments, etc., which may/may not be the policy of the school. ACCTS is much like the Council for Apostolic Accountability (?) begun by Peter Wagner of Fuller, and designed to provide a form of accountability, but is not an accrediting agency.

4. ACSI is not an accrediting agency, rather, it is an organization to which many schools belong for purposes of interaction, fellowship, joint endeavors, legitimacy--but not accreditation.

5. I appreciate both Walston's and Levicoff's work in DL, but do not agree with every detail. Nor is either of their books up to date as of 8-8-02.

So as schools do indeed change, some get worse, thankfully, some make improvements. I think LBU falls in the latter camp.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...and a partridge in a pear tree

 

Out of the 'Frey'-ing pan, into the fire

Couldn't resist that pun fellows, sorry....

I may have finally come to a decision on following up on a graduate degree.
My wife is ecstatic about getting some Pell Grant money to start her lifelong dream of going to college and is enrolled in an accounting degree program with one of our state community colleges, which is accredited and has articulation agreements with all of the area's four year schools.

In researching her options, I discovered that there may be a way that I can find money to finish my MA in Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Tennesse starting in the Spring semester.

If indeed that is the case, I will pursue the MA there because it means about a $1500 jump in my teacher salary that in turn benefits retiirement benefits.
As far as looking at degrees to supplement my ministry, perhaps I can assemble a few classes here and there and work toward that end if God so leads.

I have spent the bulk of my life growing up literally in the shadow of Neyland Stadium (Go Vols) and always wanted to graduate from the University of Tennessee. I chose my BA at Lincoln Memorial due to my dad's illness and needing to be closer to home (as a commuter) I passed up an opportunity to be in the Pride of the Southland Band as well, and maybe this is God's way of saying "Hey Dummy....now you have a chance to become a U.T. grad"

I can keep my ABS diplomas around as a reminder that I did what I was asked to do in their program and can only pray that one day the school will seek real accreditation or at the least break their ties with ACI and perhaps earn some degree of respect.

Peace of our Lord to you all.

N Him
Rex

 

"Out of the freying pan.."
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Very good Rex. We're glad you're feeling your oats! But, I notice that I am the object of your creative humor. Be honest now, you really hold a grudge over my Andersonville comments, don't you

You should talk with Russell. He learned something from Wesley- to wholly eradicate that simmering enmity- called "entire sanctification"

The best for your grad study; my alma mater, Western, would enroll you in a DL course or two as you feel led!

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Bill,

I was becoming very frustrated over your continual harrassment regarding Wesley, then something happened. I experienced what Wesley called a "strange warmth," when I realized that you have been ordained to do so.

But as the commercial says, "I love you, man!"

 

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Russell

The affection is mutual. Now there remains the issue of discovering the motive of that aspect ---the ordaining of my harassing you- --of the divine decree.

I also , as you me, love to tease you, Russell. Remember , during my veracious venting on T Delta Forum, re the nonChristian, money stealing, saintdeceiving , truthbending claim of accreditation?? Remember someone irreligiously pipng up , further confusing the brethren , , just to bug me,, with....."Um, er, well, what about Liverpool?"

 

Bill,

You make me sound like the Judaizers who went to a certain city to confuse the brethren and incite them against Paul. My only purpose on the forum of which you spoke was to bring clarity to the issues at hand by once again noting the Liverpool connection.

In future centuries history shall reflect the massive influence Liverpool has had on society in general, e.g.,:

The Beatles
Trinity
Etc..........
Etc............
Etc................................

 

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Russell.

I greatly value your contributions and, as a Calvinist, am conditioned to be confused yet remain unquestioning re events. Nevertheless, for you to painstakingly on this forum to deftly defend LBU, then on that other forum where we at times meet, to tread ever so lightly and innocuously and uncommitedly re false accreditation which costs the people of God their hard earned money, your simply asking, not telling, tests even my commitment , despite confusion,to the divine determination of all events! I pray, please account for this. Is there in the Wesleyan tenet a place for such a jeckyll (sp?)-hyde performance in the second work of grace?

 

Your chance to earn your $100 PhD

Have I got a deal for you on your theological education.

There is a web based organization, which I found when I first entered the ministry just over four years ago while building my own web page that can be found at http://www.ficotw.org Check out the St. Luke's School of Evangelical Studies which is up front that it is not accredited, and, even mentions ACI as being an ordination mill. This is our first clue that the school is on the up and up.

In the school's rigid program of education, a student is required to read several papers, complete 8 to 10 extremely difficult fill in the blank tests, and follow that with a horrendous two page dissertation that has to be filed with the school. Then, on top of the almost insurmountable work load, students must dip into their life savings or mortgage their homes to come up with the $100 to cover the cost of tuition. This cost is still kept low, to borrow a phrase, "through common sense" because the school does not waste money on wild spending for such needless things as buildings, libraries, campuses, faculty, or books. The bulk of your tuition goes to purchase the finest material on which to print your coveted degree. Then, you can LEGALLY...oh boy, use the title Doctor in front of your name, and earn the respect of all. Just think, you can rise from the mire of ignorance after breakfast, and by supper time, you can book your family's reservations at the local Waffle House as the Right Rev. Dr. so and so. And who says we don't still dwell in the land of opportunity?

You can proudly display the degree, and matching ordination materials, if you choose to be ordained legally online in your home or office, and you can use the enclosed minister's card to place in your car when you visit hospitals.
Needless to say, the cost far outweighs the two to three hours of sleepless lunch that a student would have to sacrifice to complete his degree track.

But, for all of your hard work, you can be rewarded by becoming a member of the elite fraternity for honors graduates, and for a mere $350-$400 you can proudly wear a school ring to herald your lunch break of hard work.

With tongue planted firmly in cheek, I bid you kindest regards.

N Him
Rex

 

Re: Out of the 'Frey'-ing pan, into the fire

Good luck to you Rex. I sent a private message with regard to a doctoral suggestion but it appears you have already come up with a solution.

North

 

Russell

I am really glad we can tease each other. It's nice to have someone to do that with. I consider you a real friend and mentor (in academe, that is) Your shots at my Calvinism and (i hope) mine at your Wesleyan Arminism are not to be taken as sincere attacks. I have huge respect for wesley who laboured so fully, spending himself, for our common faith. also i greatly admire Arminius' erudition and didn't mind reading the entirety of his several volumes and discussing them at Point loma. I actually prefer his soteriology to his views on Christ... as I reject essentiation! But somehow your treading lightly on Trinity does not sit well. I genuinely feel that that school purposely deceives to separate God's people from their money...i guess I don't understand why you on that forum cannot say with me, "Look, why don't you knock off the lying?"


Your not married to a Frey, are you?