If Laura Callahan's Ph.D. had been from...?

I think that part of the problem is that lots of state-approved schools are very small operations that are dominated by a single individual, usually their owner. If that individual falls prey to hubris or otherwise goes off the rails, the whole university crashes and burns.

That's probably among the reasons why WASC is reluctant to accredit very small schools, unless they can show unusal institutional solidity. (City of Hope with 33 doctoral students was recently accredited, but it's the research arm of a large medical center.)

Most "real" universities have their own identities that are independent of any single individual. The University of California is something in its own right, much larger than its chancellor or even the governor. There isn't a chance in hell that Grey Davis might move UC Berkeley to Costa Rica because Davis decided to buy a home there.

There are exceptions I guess, like Maharishi University or perhaps Liberty. If Maharishi the man catches a cold, MUM the institution sneezes.

But the fact remains that universities need to establish their own corporate identity. They can't be ruled by whims, even well meaning ones.

If that's true, is it a tribute to Cal Coast, or an indictment of state-approved DL education?

I won't argue if we restrict ourselves to DL schools, but I believe that there are a number of superior state-approved schools that offer classroom instruction.

Sure there are. But they only apply in special situations, I think.

I agree that I can't see the point of a state approved MBA when there are some 200 accredited DL MBA programs out there. But if the state approved program offers something unique and unusual, then it might be valuable to a few students I guess.

 

Chip,

Thanks for your points and lots of good discussion here. I've seen the comment above several times before but it is typically unsubstantiated. Just wondering if you've come across any information that supports the contention that California can't properly supervise its schools.

 

You must be reading something different than I am. All schools under 401 have to be checked out before a license is issued and at least once every three years. The state board of education must establish minimum standards for all schools that are approved. The credentials of staff and instructors are examined. Statutes 401-405 list things a school must do to operate in WY. They go much further than you describe, maybe not far enough, but more than a simple business license. If anyone doubts what I've said, go to the link and read (Carefully) what statutes 401-405 says. There are standards and obligations to be met that go beyond what is required of the local shoe store. You may not like them, but they do establish a minimum standard.
www.k12.wy.us/higher_ed/statutes.html

 

From what I've heard, it wouldn't take moving vans, a couple of manila envelopes would probably suffice.

 

This from the Wyoming Department of Education’s Frequently Asked Questions Web site.

What is licensing?
Licensing is the process used by the state of Wyoming to ensure that the educational institution meets the minimum standards stipulated by statute and rules and regulations.

What is accreditation?
Accreditation is a voluntary process that colleges and schools elect to participate in. It is not a state function. Accreditation assures that an institution's programs have met established standards for educational effectiveness.
To insure a basic level of quality, accreditation through non-governmental peer evaluation has been instituted. Regional and national private educational associations have assumed this role. You can access these institutions on the U.S. Department of Education's website at www.ed.gov.

Does the state of Wyoming accredit the private schools it licenses?
No. Wyoming does not accredit post secondary schools.


So there you have it. Licensing only ensures that the statutes that allow a business to operate are being met. The State of Wyoming makes it clear that licensing (and therefore the statutes) in no way guarantees educational effectiveness. The State of Wyoming freely admits that a basic level of quality is only insured through national and regional accreditors approved by the U.S. Department of Education.

It seems the State of Wyoming couldn’t be clearer: Only accreditation insures a basic level of quality, and Wyoming does not accredit post secondary schools.

 

The concept of unique and unusual is interesting although I don't think that should be a sole determinant. One of the big advantages to a state approved school is the cost. Many times its a 10th of the cost of an RA program and the material studied is the same body of knowledge. What unique methods are needed for the study of supply and demand before the student gets it? What unusual methods are needed to learn business ratios or assimilate corporate strategies in a global economy? I suppose one can gold plate any subject with more instruction than is actually necessary or wrap a lot of inconsequential things around the process of learning (football teams, palm trees around the quad, frat parties, gyms, school songs... whatever) but the cognitive goals can still be met in a more austere format. I believe that many accept the risk of lower acceptability in certain circles in favor of a favorable cost model and the potential for a high return on investment as long as the school meets standards that are important to the student. I suppose we would all accept an MBA from Duke if we had the 60 grand to plunk down and their program met our schedule. But then, that's the rub isn't it.

 

I can't put it any better than Gus.

BTW, RJT or James C....care to take a guess why K-W moved from California to Idaho to Wyoming in the span of a few years?


Bruce

 

Re: Re: If Laura Callahan's Ph.D. had been from...?

It should be noted that Alfred Rascon went back and received an RA undergrad from Excelsior.

John

 

Anyone wishing to see the full statutes of Wyoming may use the link i've given. It is much more than these deliberately shortened blurbs. Wyoming does not accredit schools. They use state approval standards drawn up by the state legislature. I suggest any person without an agenda read the statutes 401-406 and decide if they think an attempt was made to set minimum standards for DL schools within Wyoming. It doesn't matter to me if you like or dislike them but at least spend a few minutes reading the actual statutes and then decide. What is being quoted on this forum is just selected small pieces of a fairly large section of Wyoming law. The department of education was given the task of setting the mimimum standards for the approved schools. I assume they will revisit these standards as necessary to arrive at the legislatures intent. I feel they need to increase the standards some, closer to what California is doing, but I expect Wyoming is capable of handling their affairs without my great wisdom.

 

Very well said Bill. Unaccredited or state approved schools that offer something unique have value. Fly-by night degree mills that move from state to state skirting laws clearly do not. The only people they fool are those silly enough to send them a check.

 

There is nothing ambigious, shortened, misleading, or debatable about the Wyoming Department of Education stating;

"To insure a basic level of quality, accreditation through non-governmental peer evaluation has been instituted. Regional and national private educational associations have assumed this role".

I don't know how much more clear it can be...Wyoming is abdicating any responsibility of quality assurance (a basic level of quality at that) for the unaccredited schools in their state. Which is, of course, why K-W made WY the latest stop on their traveling road show.

BTW James C....you didn't answer my question, so I'll ask again. Any thoughts as to why Kennedy-Western moved from California to Idaho to Wyoming in the span of a few years, all the while maintaining their real HQ in California??


Bruce

 

I have read them, "kf5k". There's little there.

What there is doesn't seem to be enforced: How are site visits made when schools are located overseas? Do "branch campuses" in places like Pakistan and China really have 50% RA faculty?

I've already read them. I saw nothing there that gave me any confidence in the process or in the schools that it licenses.

In fact, Wyoming itself says that its licensing only means that the requirements of the stautes have been met, and does not imply that Wyoming is accrediting or endorsing the schools. The statutes require that every student sign this disclaimer:

"I understand that (name of institution) is licensed by the Wyoming department of education in accordance with W.S. 21-2-401 through 21-2-407 and that neither the department of education nor the Wyoming state board of education has accredited or endorsed any course of study being offered by (name of institution)."

But you seem to be trying to spin the Wyoming licensing process into a quasi-accreditation endorsment process, in which real academic standards have been met.

That's going to need more argument on your part.

If you think that we're not giving sufficient consideration to some sections of the statutes, great. If you think that Wyoming itself is wrong, and that the statutes do in fact represent an endorsement or a form of accreditation, then tell us what you find credible and give us some idea why.

That's pretty condescending. If you continue like that, don't whine when we respond coldly.

I wrote a whole post about their site visits, and quoted the relevant section of the statute. If you want to ignore my post, fine. But don't pretend that it wasn't made.

 

I have asked people to read the statutes and decide for themselves what they represent. If asking people to read something and then form their own opinion scares peole then so be it. I've not stated an opinion as to the quality of these statutes, but I notice that the sharks are very willing to provide my opinion for me. If you know my thoughts so well then by all means continue offering my views. I'm sorry that I believe that each person should have a right to read and form their own views without having the sharks edit the information first. My challenge to the forum remains the same. Read statutes 401-406 and decide for yourself if this was an attempt by the legislature to set minimum standards for approved schools in Wyoming. I've not tried to tell anyone what to think nor what to take from these statutes, but you owe it to yourself to read them uncensored, and yes I still don't care what anyone takes from these statutes. That is a matter of individual judgement and experience. Why in the world would it be important to me to try and control the thoughts of another person.

 

I have always regarded 21-2-402.b.v. to be extremely revealing as to the true intent of the licensing statutes. By law, the enrollment contract of those attending KW has to explicitly state: "I understand that Kennedy Western University is licensed by the Wyoming department of education in accordance with W.S. 21-2-401 through 21-2-407 and that neither the department of education nor the Wyoming state board of education has accredited or endorsed any course of study being offered by Kennedy Western University."

Given the nature of the arguments presented by the graduates of unaccredited Wyoming schools, I have to wonder whether schools like Kennedy-Western are actually adhering to this statute. (RJT, did you sign such a statement?) I also wonder where these enrollment contracts are kept and if they have ever been inspected by the Wyoming Department of Education. It is inconceivable that anyone can believe that state licensing is tantamount to some kind of accreditation or even approval, if they already legally acknowledged that their course of study wasn’t even endorsed by the Wyoming state board of education.

Just for fun, compare the requirements (by statute) for licensing a university to the requirements for licensing a barbershop (see http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/title33/chapter07.htm).

 

I have read the statutes very thoroughly, and my synopsis is this: "The Wyoming legislature is fine with degree mills operating within their state, as long as the state gets its cut."

Here's my summary of the major provisions of these statutes:

1. School must have physical facilities in Wyoming. (Meaning they will add at least a bit to Wyoming's economy, and provide tax revenue.)

2. Schools are subject to on-site visits. (There are no specifications in the statutes as to what they are looking for. I guess they are verifying the physical facilities actually exist.) The school must pay the state for expenses incurred in the site visits.

3. Schools must fill out a few forms regarding financial and academic aspects of the school. But there are no specified standards. They just have to fill out the forms.

4. At least 50% of the faculty must have RA graduate degrees. (There's nothing from stopping a school of any size from only having one "official" faculty member, who has an RA degree, giving them 100% RA faculty.)

5. The school must pay license fees.

6. The school must include the following statement to all applicants:

"I understand that (name of institution) is licensed by the Wyoming department of education in accordance with W.S. 21-2-401 through 21-2-407 and that neither the department of education nor the Wyoming state board of education has accredited or endorsed any course of study being offered by (name of institution)."

7. Recruiting agents for the schools must pay a fee to the state.

8. Schools must require students to take at least one class for a degree. There are absolutely no standards regarding this class.

9. Schools can not claim fake accreditation.

10. Schools must put up a bond of at least $50K.

11. The state board of education will establish minimum standards (as far as I can tell, these are not available online, so I have no idea what they say.)

12. A school teaching techniques of outdoor recreation, leadership, ecology or conservation domiciled in the state of Wyoming is total exempted from even these meager provisions. They can advertise that they are simply selling degrees outright with absolutely no requirements, and it is completely legal. Just as legal as a Kennedy-Western degree.

That's it.

Did I miss something?

 

I don’t see where anyone has tried to state your views or control your thoughts. Moreover, your implication, that those opining on the statutes have not bothered to read them, is a bit condescending, don’t you think? If you had bothered to do a search, you would’ve discovered that these statutes have been discussed ad nauseam on this forum long before you became a member. Wyoming’s own FAQ Web site anticipates questions concerning the statutes, licensing and accreditation, and as such, leaves little room for interpretation or judgment.

 

Oh yes, plenty of room for debate, and judgement, and I doubt that very many have sat down and read all the statutes 401-406. Maybe this new debate will force more to see what the statutes really say, rather than the shortened versions that get posted. How many people were aware that the Wy Dept. of Education was responsible for setting minimum standards for the approved schools? I read them from begining to end several times before deciding that they were set at a minimum level, but above a simple business license.

 

As far as I can tell, according to these statutes, the minimum standards, as far as academic aspects are concerned, are:

1. At least 50% of the instructors must have an RA graduate degree. (Nothing to stop a school with 1000+ students having only one "official instructor" who has an RA Master's.)

2. The school must require that the students take at least one class, with absolutely no standards specified for that class.

Note that neither of these requirements apply to a school teaching techniques of outdoor recreation, leadership, ecology or conservation.


Yes, the requirements are slightly above that of a simple business license (for schools that are not exempted.) But, as was pointed out earlier, they are not nearly as stringent as the Wyoming licensing requirements for barbershops.

 

You implied that pieces copied by others and posted here were misleading and taken out of context. In my view this is an example of how you have been intellectually dishonest in your posts here. Another example is your insults and then trying to pretend that others are insulting and attacking you. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your posts but it looks that way to me?

 

Of course there is room for debate. Do you have anything new to add to the debate besides denigrating everyone else’s contribution by implying that they haven’t read the statutes?

Once again, you offer nothing more than condescension; I suggest you do a search of the forum archives. Moreover, the State of Wyoming does not approve schools, and students of unaccredited schools in the state must sign a statement acknowledging this fact. The minimum standards to which you refer are only the requirements for a business license.

Not really. For example, if you take the time to read the statutes (see how annoying that is?), you will see that the requirements to license a barbershop are much more rigorous than the requirements for licensure of a post secondary education institution. Moreover, Wyoming goes to great lengths to make it abundantly clear that the statutes are solely for a license to operate and not intended to set any standards for educational quality.

So you can debate whether statutes W.S. 21-2-401 through W.S. 21-2-407 are more or less rigorous than the requirements for business licensure in other states or for other types of businesses, but if you are attempting to equate these statutes to some form of state approval, endorsement or accreditation of a school, or even correlate them to some standard of educational quality (I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to do), the State of Wyoming itself says your efforts are misguided.