If Laura Callahan's Ph.D. had been from...?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gov't Regulatory Oversight

Oh, OK. Silly me, why didn’t I think of that? The fact that you consider yourself to be on some kind of crusade excuses your boorish behavior. Before I acknowledge you as the liberator of DegreeInfo, however, could you please explain how failing to refute dishonest, misleading, or simply wrong information is in the public interest?

Here’s a good idea. Instead of whining, instead of advocating preemptive censorship of those that might disagree with you, why don’t you lead by example and post a well formulated and concise argument backed up by verifiable evidence? I think you’ll find that many posters will either agree or respectfully disagree and tell you why.

I, for one, have no interest in treating anyone like an idiot or a criminal. That having been said, if I had to classify the individuals who purchased or promoted extremely sub-standard degrees and tried to pass them off as legitimate (especially on this forum), guess which two words would come to mind in trying to describe them?

 

I believe that K-W is a degre mill. It seems that some here disagree with this opinion. If you want to really try to convince me that I'm mistaken then the place to start is my post that was previously ignored.

If you believe that K-W is not a degree mill then please explain why.

1. K-W will not admit students in the legal jurisdiction that they actually operate from, California.
2. Why their mailing address fled from CA to Hawaii.
3. Why the address then fled from Hawai to Idaho.
4. Why the address then fled from Idaho to Wyoming.

The reason that K-W is fleeing is to avoid prosecution for being a degree mill. It is that simple. The reason they don't admit students from CA is so that they won't be prosecuted for being a degree mill. It is that simple. Although I would be extremely interested in any alternative explanations that you might have?

 

1-They operate legally in Wyoming.
2-They have study and testing material.
3-No guide book that John Bear has produced has placed them in the degree mill section, but has placed them in the Other Schools Group.
4-Kennedy Western has been in existence since 1984.
5- Degree mills have no study or testing & phoney up transcripts, are not inspected or regulated by the state they reside in.
I believe that k-W operates at a level above degree mills.
Even though they lack physical stability they still operate above degree mills.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gov't Regulatory Oversight

Your last paragraph is exactly what I've been describing as the way people with different views are treated.

 

Please refer to the above numbers for the following responses.
1- Many degree mills that have been proven in a court of law to be degree mills appeared to operate legally within some jurisdiction.
2- K-W doesn't publish graduation requirements nor their method for evaluating work experience, I believe the reason is that they do not use academic methods but instead use methods much closer to degree mill methods.
3- Read the book again. It says that many potential degree mills are in the Other and the Miscellaneous chapters because the author wants to avoid frivolous harassement lawsuits.
4- Sussex College of Technology is in the degree mill chapter of Bear's Guide and was in existance much longer than K-W.
5- Degree mills do those things that you say but there are degree mills in Bear's guide that don't fit your very restricted definition of a degree mill here. I agree that if a school fit into your definition that it would be a degree mill. But it would also be a degree mill if it's graduation requirements were even sometimes woefully below standard like K-W or it had a history like the following.

1. K-W will not admit students in the legal jurisdiction that they actually operate from, California.
2. They fled from CA to Hawaii.
3. They then fled from Hawai to Idaho.
4. They then fled from Idaho to Wyoming.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gov't Regulatory Oversight

So, James, are you advocating that those who purchase or promote extremely sub-standard degrees and try to pass them off as legitimate should be able to do so with impunity? Interesting.

 

1- In what prison does the owner of K-W reside since his conviction for running a degree mill?
2- Any K-W student knows what is required before they hand over their money.
3- John Bear has always listed K-W under the others group. I can't read his mind so I'll leave it there.
4- Sussex was always listed as a degree mill, there was no doubt.
5- Dr Bear says that 12-18 months are required to earn a degree from K-W. It takes 3-4 weeks from Hamilton, and that is the difference.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gov't Regulatory Oversight

If you feel intimidated it is because you feel you do not have an adequate defense. That is a fact. One does not feel intimidated in the face of an inferior opponent. You would like to say that the other 4,000 members of this forum would like nothing more than to rise up in your defense but they are intimidated from this action. The priciple of Occam's Razor suggests otherwise. A far simpler answer is that the reason they don't come to your defense is that they simply don't agree with you. You have made a bad decision and it has come back to haunt you. You remind me of the storybook Captain Hook who is forever looking over his shoulder listening for the quiet tick, tick, tick of the approaching crocodile. In your case, however, it is not the crocodile you hear. It is the quiet ticking of the time bomb in your resume. Your best bet is to revive www.distancedegree.net.
Jack

 

James C writes of me, "I can't read his mind so I'll leave it there."

Since I can read my mind, let me report on the exercise of contemplating what would have been going on if this forum had existed in 1995. There would be endless, repetitive, increasingly tedious postings, pro and con, on LaSalle University.

Students and alumni would vigorously defend it, pointing out, over and over, that they operate legally under Louisiana law, and the Louisiana Supreme Court twice upheld their practice of awarding religious degrees in chemistry and psychology (etc.), since God created matter and brains (etc.).

Opponents would, over and over, call them a degree mill.

I would put LaSalle in the 'unaccredited, but not diploma mill' chapter of my book.

And the James C. of that time would have asked,
"In what prison does the owner of LaSalle reside since his conviction for running a degree
mill?"

And, a few months later, I would be able to smile broadly and reply, "Beaumont Federal Prison, Beaumont, Texas." (There was no trial; he pleaded guilty.)

(I am not, of course, drawing or hinting at a parallel with any other school, but merely pointing out that there are times when federal authorities (in the LaSalle instance, the FBI, the Postal Inspectors, and the IRS) believe that something that operates legally under a state law nonetheless violates federal laws.

We are seeing that in California now, where medical marijuana is absolutely legal, in a proposition passed by a wide margin by the voters -- and yet Mr. Ashcroft is pulling out all the stops to attack and close the state-legal suppliers and arrest the people involved.)

 

Please reference above numbers for the below responses.

1- If the owner does go to prison it would seem to be kind of late to change a poor decision. Ones credentials is not a good place for a game of chance.
2- That can be said for any degree mill in history. Why doesn't K-W publish graduation requirements or the policy as to how work experience is converted into credits? K-W is a degree mill seems like the obvious answer.
3- Read his book.
4- In 2003, there's no doubt that K-W is a degree mill. Look at their history, look at their lack of public information regarding graduation requirements, look at the substandard quantity of credits, etc.
5- A real Bachelor's degree takes more than 15 credits plus a report. Last time I checked it was at least 120 credits for a Bachelor's degree. Just because some degree mills only require 3 credits and a report it doesn't mean that there's not room for K-W on the degree mill heap. Your argument uses the same logic as saying that shoplifting is okay because Jeffery Damar was a serial killer.

 

Well the James C. of this age would ask under what authority did London Institute for Applied Research operate under- Accredited or Approved?
When you started Fairfax in Louisiana was it accredited or approved?
When you moved Greenwich to Hawaii- Was it accredited or approved?
Was Louisiana chosen for Fairfax because of how easy it would be? No rules of any kind back then, as I remember.
Let me see Hawaii- Now why would anyone move a school to a state with very friendly regulations?
According to Bill Huffman moving schools to easy states mean they are degree mills. Hey Bill are these three schools also degree mills? None were ever RA- DETC-State Approved. Are their degrees also useless?

 

> Well the James C. of this age would ask under what
> authority did London Institute for Applied Research operate
> under- Accredited or Approved?

L.I.A.R. never existed. Dr Bear printed up some novelty diplomas in that name as a fundraiser. He now regrets having done so.

Do you imagine that bringing up incidents from Dr Bear's past will persuade us that a bad school is a good school? Isn't the ad hominem fallacy obvious here?

> When you started Fairfax in Louisiana was it accredited or
> approved?

It is not possible to "start" an accredited school. You have to first start the school and then seek accreditation. Dr Bear left Fairfax before the first students enrolled.

> Are their degrees also useless?

I won't call anything a "degree mill" without proof, because that would be libelous. But I will note that the degrees are illegal in Oregon. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Would you?

 

Ding! Ding! Ding! OK, who had "78" in the "How many posts will it take before James C. resorts to innane personal attacks" pool?

Longer than I expected, but I think we all knew it was coming.

 

So I guess what you're saying is that you have no reasonable response? Was that post really supposed to be an argument showing that K-W is not a degree mill??? I hope that you can swim because you've really stepped off into the deep end on this one.

 

You didn't answer Bill. Apply the system you used to determine that K-W and Chadwick are Degree Mills to these schools and lets see what happens.
London Institute for Applied Research
Fairfax University
Greenwich University

 

Okay I'll answer this one the best I can but at the end I will ask for the fourth time that you address my questions which I believe you have ignored 3 times now.

LIAR was formed as a humorous method of encouraging donations to a bona fide university. I wouldn't call it a degree mill in the normal sense of the term.

Fairfax- I have no opinion since I don't have Bear's Guide handy and I'm not familar with their history.

Greenwich University - My understanding of the facts is that they were unceremoniously chased out of Norwalk. This is cause for great concern. I have yet to see them spring up any place else. For arguments sake if they did then I very well could consider them a degree mill. Will they accepts students from the jurisdiction that they actually reside? We don't know this yet, do we? If they didn't then I'd consider them a degree mill.

If you believe that K-W is not a degree mill then please explain why.

1. K-W will not admit students in the legal jurisdiction that they actually operate from, California.
2. Why their mailing address fled from CA to Hawaii.
3. Why the address then fled from Hawai to Idaho.
4. Why the address then fled from Idaho to Wyoming.

 

I'll be happy to comment on all three of them.

This seems to have been an (arguably) poorly conceived gimmick to solicit donations to something. I don't think that it was ever presented seriously (note its initials) or in such a way as to mislead anyone.

But if we were to evaluate it seriously, as if it were a real school, then sure. It clearly would be degree-mill.

I just commented on this one on the other forum.

I don't think that it's a full-frontal degree mill, but it does seem to be substandard. I think that it attempts to offer far too much with far too little, and that its results are lacking. I don't find it credible. My advice to Fairfax would be to only offer a few programs, and try to devote some real resources to doing them well.

Similar to Fairfax. This one may have been marginally stronger, until its owner took it to Norfolk Island and started making misleading accreditation claims, ultimately destroying it.

I think that both of these things might have had considerable promise in their early days, but that potential wasn't fulfilled.

I do think that there are important lessons in these kind of schools that can be applied to the creation of other new (and hopefully more successful) universities. The need for sufficient resources, limited and achievable ambitions and good management, most obviously.
I'd add an independent corporate identity and a board of trustees operating in the school's own interest, independent of the whims of its owners.

There. Have you advanced K-W's position in any way by having someone say that?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gov't Regulatory Oversight

With the above in mind I'd point out to you that a poll is currently being run on the Distance Education Forum regarding members opinions of KW. This poll, while perhaps not especially "scientific" in its design is certain free from intimidation. People vote anonymously and have the option of commenting at length or not at all. At the time of this writing 80% have stated their opinion that KW has no credibility. All the indications are that on this entire forum there are perhaps only two or three people who agree with you. My guess is that they're simply trying to defend a similar degree (and convincing no one).
Jack

 

Thank you Bill and my apologies to the good people on Norfolk Island for calling it Norwalk. Of course if you good people would be so kind as to change your Island's name to Norwalk then I wouldn't be having this problem.

On second thought since you are apparently blocked from reading this site it is safe to assume that you can't read my request so I therefore withdraw my request (but the apology stands).

 

Here is my take on the three schools.
London Institute for Applied Research
No harm done, and none intended.

Fairfax University
a legitimate school, no mill.

Greenwich University
meets my standards for non-traditional schools.

One school was harmless and the other two were of decent quality. I never said I didn't like them. I just wanted to see if the same rules applied to all schools. I liked non-traditional schools then, and now.