I have Resigned from NCU

DW, I used to think you were full of it, but I'm not so sure these days. In their defense, NCU warned me that most people don't make it through the doctoral program; it can't be an intentional scam when they are telling you up front. But I can see your point, there is nobody telling the student to quit, it is always the decision of the student, so there is little chance that this could ever be prosecuted as a purposeful scam. The school would say that the student quit, so it is not their fault. I agree with you in principle, but I somehow doubt that this is a purposeful design by most schools (maybe purposeful by a few), but rather it ends up more of a happy accident for the school, and of course they are going with it.

 

Dave - my experience in business schools with DL doctoral programs is that most underestimate the amount of faculty support that doctoral students require. Unlike a class, where you might pay an adjunct to teach 20 students, thesis support is much more labor intensive.

At the same time, DL doctoral students are often busy people with multiple time commitments. Further the idea of completing a project where you have to initiate and complete research is challenging.

Regards - Andy

 

Actually, each school is somewhat different. I got my ABD letter after I completed my Comps and after my Concept Paper was approved.

 

Andy and all;

A factor contributing to lower retention in low contact online courses (such as at NCU) is the lack of connectedness/engagement (Terrell, Dringus, & Snyder, 2009). At the Doctoral level, retention is cited by Terrell, et al as being 10-20% lower than for the bricks and mortar retention rates of 50-60%. So, we are talking about a 20-40% retention rate for low contact Doctoral programs. Communities of Practice are a standard remedy for connectedness issues. This is part of what I am proposing in my dissertation -that an unofficial NCO group of learners on YahooGroups is functioning as a COP and offering the missing connectedness, which in turn is of value to NCU.

Terrell, S. R., Dringus, L. P., & Snyder, M. M. (2009). The development, validation, and application of the Doctoral Student Connectedness Scale. The Internet and Higher Education, 12(6), 112-116. doi:10.1016/.iheduc.2009.06.004

 

I corroborate the bolded part at an anecdotal level.

I was taught how to conduct research at a B&M by professors who stood in front of the classroom and told us in plain language how to conduct research and what it is and what it isn't. Listening to them explain it made it so much easier.

At NCU and other 100% online institutions, I really don't see how a learner can grasp some of those research concepts in "specialization courses" (for CJ, management, IT, etc.). The specialization courses don't teach how to conduct research.

Only 15.30% of the people who enroll in NCU's doctoral program actually graduate. It's not NCU's fault, but it's the fault of the 100% online methodology of teaching. As proof of this, it would be interesting to see the graduate rates of other 100% online doctoral programs, such as Capella, TUI and others.

Graduating from a 100% regionally accredited doctoral program is frankly a miracle.

 

SurfDoctor, DW is sharing this information as an insider (he teaches at several internet schools) who is aware of what the schools do, and is willing to share it. These PhD programs are pure scams. The programs are designed to extract as much money from students until the students can't pay anymore. Also, just because the schools are legal does not mean that their practices and intent are.

How can non-specialists, and non-doctoral degree holders in some cases, teach others, and eventually qualifies who should graduate with a doctoral degree. For example, (X)UI is run by someone with an MBA. What qualifies that person to set policies that affect their doctoral programs, and in some instances, directly supervises the doctoral programs? While that question is probably more appropriate for the accrediting body to answer, such inconsistencies only point to how flawed the "PhD program business model" is.

The operators of these schools have no intentions of graduating majority of the students they admit into those programs because on one hand, the qualification to do so is lacking, and on the other hand, it would go in contrast with the business model, which is to make a lot of money in exchange for something that resembles an education.

I never doubted DW's claims, and if you're interested in accepting reality, you shouldn't. This month alone, they've been lots of PhD student withdrawals from NCU than I thought is possible. The sad part is that more and more people are falling prey to these operations; more students are enrolling. A scam is a scam regardless of whether the scam is operated with an accreditation (afterall, the accreditation bodies are staffed with operators of some of these outfits). Bottom line, folks need to learn and stay away from these operations as much as possible, except, someone else is paying for them.

 

Facts and sources are not allowed..... Shame on you.

 

NCU, NCU, NCU. What other schools are doing this "scam?" So a school that tells you that you are not going to graduate because very few people do is simply using reverse psychology to get more people rapped up in their scam? This might be the scam of the century. Randell just made it through, I guess they knew he was a moderator here and allowed him to graduate for publicity reasons.

 

What you've explained is precisely why more people hold internet PhDs in low regard; specifically, why B & M schools and major employers in some fields, will continue to discriminate against such degrees. It should sicken folks to think that you can pay $40k, $50k, $60k, or $70k as charged by some internet schools, for a degree that may not "make the cut." I'm thankful that I found Degree Info.

 

He is an adjunct. Do you really think the school would share their "grand scam" with an adjunct? Or tell an adjunct not to pass people so they can rip them off? This is really reaching for "proof" isn't it...

What is your example of this - How can non-specialists, and non-doctoral degree holders in some cases, teach others, and eventually qualifies who should graduate with a doctoral degree?

How would the school lose money by graduating people? - The operators of these schools have no intentions of graduating majority of the students they admit into those programs because on one hand, the qualification to do so is lacking, and on the other hand, it would go in contrast with the business model, which is to make a lot of money in exchange for something that resembles an education .

 

Well, they told me that many people do not make it before I gave them money. My thought was, "Oh yeah, I will write a big check and prove you wrong!" These conspiracy theories are hysterical. Let’s not consider that there may be other factors involved to make people drop out. I wonder what the graduation rate for Valdosta State’s DPA program is….

 

I am thankful for this thread. As I contemplate a PhD, and flip-flip between UNISA and a few British schools offering distance programs, I find myself leaning to the British, even tho they will cost more. I like the idea of needing to be on campus a few weeks each year - I think that connectedness will help me be successful, but more importantly, will allow the doctoral process to have a greater impact on me personally. Ideally, I would do a full time B&M PhD, but lack sufficient $$, and not sure I could be away from family for extended periods. Mind you, maybe I need to pursue some scholarship/support $$....or the lottery. Who knows?! ....

 

Connectedness is important to learning. Ideally, a student needs to be engaged (connected) with the material, with faculty and with other learners. In a low contact online learning environment at the doctoral level, you are engaged with the material, less so with faculty, and not at all with others. This is why ad hoc peer groups are important to the learning process. The unofficial NCU group on YahooGroups has been a lifesaver for many NCU students. It operates as (a)hallway scuttlebut, (b) rumor control, and (c) a place to get encouragement, course information, and advice. I do not think that NCU is a scam, but I do think that the for-profit aspect has hurt it. I believe that NCU was acquired by Rockbridge equity in a leveraged buyout, and that they are looking for maximum growth potential.

This is a 2009 announcement from the company that acquired NCU: http://www.rbequity.com/news/ncu-holdings-1-16-09.pdf "NCU has grown revenues substantially at an average annual rate of 47 percent since 2005. This growth is attributed to the high quality of its educational offerings, competitive tuition and the flexibility afforded by NCU's unique 100 percent online, one-on-one learning model. NCU has no residency requirements, which gives students, who live in 50 states and 84 countries, additional flexibility.....

"We believe that NCU has a talented management team and exceptional learning model. We plan to leverage the online marketing capabilities and technology capacity of Quicken Loans, and its deep infrastructure, to continue growing NCU's leadership position," said Rockbridge Growth Equity Partner Dan Gilbert, who also is Chairman and Founder of Quicken Loans. "With Rockbridge Growth Equity and Falcon Investments, Northcentral University will have two outstanding partners to assist the institution with its future growth plans," said David Shefrin, president of David Shefrin and Associates who represented NCU in this transaction.

About Rockbridge Growth Equity
Rockbridge Growth Equity (Rockbridge Growth Equity) is a private equity firm that has dedicated capital focusing on transactions in the financial services, consumer-direct marketing, business services and sports, media & entertainment industries. Rockbridge is affiliated with other leading businesses in its target sectors including Quicken Loans, One Reverse Mortgage, Title Source, ePrize, Flash Seats, Veritix and the Cleveland Cavaliers.

About Falcon Investments
Falcon Investment Advisors, LLC is a private equity firm with offices in Boston, New York, and Dallas, specializing in providing subordinated debt and other junior capital. Founded in July 2000 by Mr. Sandeep Alva, Falcon has over $700 million under management. Falcon has substantial investing experience across a variety of industries, including the education industry through its ownership of American Institute of Technology (AIT)*."

*Note: AIT is a school for training Truck Drivers.

 

But do they tell you the reasons that many people do not make it? If they say, "Our PhD program is difficult. It requires a major time commitment, self-motivation, and a lot of work. Many people do not make it." I can see people being attracted to the challenge.

If they say, "Our PhD program is difficult. It requires a major time commitment, self-motivation, and lot of work. Also, we are always changing program requirements, raising tuition, and are a pain in the *ss to deal with overall. Many people do not make it." That would be a different story.

 

This is non sense, I have taught as an adjunct at 5 for profit schools and never been asked to fail students for dissertations or courses (never worked at NCU).
The problem with these schools is the open admissions policy, the quality of academic work for many dissertations is substandard and for this reason being rejected. Not everyone is cut for being a researcher.

Most B&M schools have a very strict admission processes for a PhD that includes a GMAT, research proposal, high GPA, etc. This with the intention to filter some candidates that will not make the cut. At NCU, anyone with a credit card can get in, this for sure will increase the chances that you will never make it to the end.

The school is increasing its tuition fees because it can, it knows that many people will drop but overall will still make more money with the ones that will stay.

The problem is that we live in times when one needs a PhD to be an adjunct to teach undergraduate subjects. The reality is that you don't need a PhD to teach an undergraduate course in marketing or finance, but the market requires it so we see people dishing the 50 or 60K for this type of degrees.

I believe the British, Australian and South Africans have it right, they recognize that people might want a PhD but cannot afford to take time off so they offer government sponsored programs that won't cost you a small fortune.

 

As usual, RF, you nailed it. That's why I always read your posts. There is no secret, devious cabal that has chosen to scam people who want a doctorate degree; the low success rate is a product of open admissions. When you let the average person into a doctoral program, you can expect that most will drop because they find very quickly they cant cope. I agree that some schools are profiting from this situation and doing nothing to stop it, but you can't call that a scam, at least not at NCU. No matter how you slice it, when you are warned that you probably will not make it, you can't accuse someone of scamming you.

 

Thanks... You made my day with this backhanded compliment.

 

Speaking generally, with no particular school in mind...

Whenever you accept money for a product or service that you have no intention (or capacity) to provide, it is fraud (or a scam). In fact, that is pretty much the definition of the term fraud. These students are not in a real doctoral program and few, if any, professors are able to take steps to see that they are actually being trained to succeed as academic doctors. OK, so it is illegal promise this imaginary doctoral program service / product, and there is a long and easy to prosecute electronic trail of the fraud.

But what about unethical? Is it unethical to participate in this "doctoral program?" Yes, of course, because of Informed Consent and Human Subjects Protection; as long as the actual graduation rate is not published to incoming students, these illegal business practices are also unethical. Students are trusting you not to harm them and you are intentionally stealing their time and money, without any tangible warning.

 

I agree with the definition but not with the idea that NCU is committing fraud. They do have the capacity to offer the program as they have the dissertation supervisors and the instructors available.

Doctoral education for them is a business, they cannot deny access to the program even if they know you are a weak student as this is their main source of income. They are informing the student that the program is hard and many will drop out. Students are aware of the risk they are taking so there is deception or any indication of fraud.

I'm sure if there was something to accuse them of fraud, we would have heard of something by now with so many money hungry lawyers willing to sue their own mothers for a penny.

 

It would help if for profit schools start asking for research publications. Students tend to feel that their research is worth something and feel under attack when a supervisor or examiner let's them know that their work isn't worth much. The student then feels scammed and that the school is the problem and not them.
If the students are asked to publish and are rejected by most of the known journals in their field, then they will understand that their work might not be worth the PhD and stop blaming the school and supervisors.
It is not in the best interest of NCU to graduate every single student that is admitted, this will deteriorate even more their reputation and destroy their business. Publication requirements can be a good idea but that will reduce graduation rates even more.
At the end of the day, if the student is capable of publishing in a major journal, nobody would doubt about the quality of the PhD.

I noticed that NCU is asking now for supervisors with publication record. This is a good start as before you would have supervisors with no publications supervising students. It is like a blind man guiding another blind man.