Here's a question for you . . .

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Kizmet, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  2. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    Never been a smoker, no interest in vaping, and prefer a somewhat clean life style... but I’ve been fascinated with watching some of the business maneuvering around this, particularly with Juul.
  3. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I question just how unsafe it really is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that the variation in mixtures is vast and I have no faith that the CDC has nailed down which ones are harmful. I'm not saying it can't be harmful, I'm saying the evidence is not strong. Besides that, the cases being focused on involve marijuana and CBD flavored juices, but the majority of flavored juices contain neither marijuana nor CBD.

    Here is a comment from one person in the article's comment section that makes it all clear: "Banning vaping (or banning flavors, which is effectively the same thing), without banning smoking would be insane. They'd increase the number of smokers by millions literally overnight."

    No kidding! And do we really believe they don't know that? Please. The big tobacco companies were late to the party, saw their profits going down, realized the vaping market was too vast to ever gain control of, they lobbied hard to thin the herd so they could gain that control, and this is the result. Think about it: if you were a cigarette smoker for years, you switched to vaping and used flavored juices because the tobacco flavor tasted bad (this is why most people use other flavored juices, tobacco is actually not a very popular flavor), but now you can't use other flavored juices anymore, what will you likely do? Go back to regular cigarettes.

    If there were a real concern for public safety, tobacco flavored juices would be banned too, but doing that would close the line to getting people back on cigarettes which we know for a fact causes cancer and has led to millions of deaths. I'm sure the big tobacco companies have made sure the banning of tobacco flavors didn't happen.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't even know how it is legal. When cigarette smoking became a societal "thing," we didn't really know or understand its dangers.

    But we do now.

    This is just an artificial device that delivers a highly addictive chemical for no apparent reason beyond creating a demand fueled by that addiction. It is drug-dealing at its worst: all of the addiction and none of the high.

    I get it for smokers wanting to stop putting cigarette smoke into their lungs, but unable to kick the nicotine habit. But that's not where the money is; it's on hooking non-smokers. This is predatory and dangerous, and we put up with it? For what?
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    The opposite has happened. Smoking went down substantially with the Millennial generation, but it started picking up again in recent years with Gen Z. Young people who vape are four times more likely to start smoking cigarettes. It's the nicotine addiction that's the problem. Juul has even been doing seminars at high schools and telling teens that it's safe to vape; I don't even know why this is allowed. As Rich said, the vaping industry is making its money by hooking new smokers. There's little money in hooking older, current cigarette smokers who are going to die off eventually. Getting new addicts keeps the money flowing.
  6. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I agree that new smokers are the group the money will flow from long-term, but the existing group still brings in billions and that group ranges from 18 (and even lower, let's be honest) to ??. So you have a group of people who quit smoking to vape. Millions in that group. Then you have a group of people who never smoked but chose to vape, liked it, and stuck with it. Millions in that group. The common bond between both groups is that the overwhelming majority use flavored juices. Remove the flavored juices, and then where do they go?

    The group that quit smoking to vape could very likely go back to cigarettes, it's familiar to them, and it gives them the nicotine they crave and they are very unlikely to chew nicotine gum or use a patch as those have been around for some time now and have never decimated the smoking crowd, and they're unlikely to use the available tobacco flavored juices because they're considered to taste strange by most vapers. Flavors that come in fruit, candy, drinks, pastries, are all the types that dominate the market with nicotine added in. Same with people who vaped marijuana, they're going to want to keep getting that high from somewhere. A long-enough term marijuana smoker is going to look for a device that simulates smoking marijuana, with that option gone it's more than likely back to smoking marijuana the "traditional" way.

    The group that never smoked but picked up vaping will need to get that nicotine from someplace. They're unlikely to use patches and gums if we base this solely on the general behavior we've seen from nicotine-addicted people. And those people generally find the tobacco flavors even less favorable as they were never smokers to begin with. Maybe they go cold turkey? If not, maybe they try cigarettes, too.

    I guess the point I'm making is, once every flavor besides tobacco is removed, people are going to find some other way to get that nicotine in a way that agrees with their tastes. It would be great if they got it through gums and patches, but as we've seen that's unlikely. The only group that is most likely to walk away without much of a fuss is the group that vaped non-addictive juices (non-nicotine, non-marijuana, etc.).
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

    Do you have a link to this? (I'm curious, not doubtful.)
  8. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    This is the part of what’s fascinated me about Juul. Their CEO has really been trying, or seems to be trying, to market them as a health product or healthier/safer alternative. There’s been a number of stories, including some interviews that I’ve found to be just preposterous.
  9. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    Similar to the early days of cigarette advertising where they would feature Doctors not only recommending cigarettes but also smoking them in the same ad.
  10. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    And that's no indictment on the companies that produce nicotine patches and gums. It's more of an example of how strong a hold the addiction to nicotine has on people. You're right though, if it's one thing we know about smokers be they smokers of tobacco or weed, we know that they usually won't stay on the non-smoking/non-vaping alternatives for long and even getting them to try those alternatives doesn't happen enough to be significant. I'm not advocating vaping, but smoking still appears far worse just from a standpoint of having a much deeper body of evidence spanning a far longer period of time. Making this drastic move against vaping because of what amounts to a comparatively tiny number of cases just wreaks of a larger agenda and I don't buy the public safety angle one bit. Vaping could turn out to be just as bad, but right now we just don't have enough evidence and not enough study time behind it to make a fair conclusion.
  11. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Smoking marijuana actually might be safer than vaping it. Most of these lung infections are coming from people vaping cannabinoid products. Smoking marijuana doesn't have the same effects as smoking tobacco. Also, marijuana is not nearly as addictive as nicotine.
  12. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Despite my position against vaping, I don't think this should be a priority for the government. A politician on the news said that we don't ban flavored alcohol that young people like, so why would we ban flavored e-cigarettes? We can't get universal background checks, which most Americans support, but the administration wants to jump the gun on e-cigarettes because some young people have made the personal choice to put chemicals in their lungs.
  13. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    I would counter, that the vaping issue is something that has a feasible solution, which could provide a significant reduction of the threat and cost it is bearing on society. Is it the most pressing concern? Of course not. It is a concern though that could easily be effectively mitigated. *This post may or may not have been sponsored by the tobacco industry. Have a cookie, come to the dark side.*

  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Might be. It's that uncertainty that has to be dealt with through more study.

    That's exactly why this current move is heavy-handed. I've read in at least one state article that marijuana juices and vaping products will not be affected by the ban so that's another questionable part. The focus is on fruit/candy/etc. juices. But what is the science behind that? How many brands of these were tested? What is the supposed common connecting chemical present in the flavored juices that isn't present in the tobacco or marijuana juices? That's the information we need to see before we can make a fair decision, and even then I would want a separate study done by someone other than the CDC, provided they don't have an interest for or against vaping.

    That's true, but I wasn't making a comparison of addictivity levels. It's just that marijuana vaping products exploded in popularity almost as quickly as they hit the scene (not that anyone should be surprised by that) and there is a very strong lifestyle & community with marijuana in general, enough to look at it as more than just a small matter.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Tagline for vaping: Making it easier to maintain your nicotine addiction in socially acceptable ways.

    Tagline for vaping : Because they won't let us sell you candy cigarettes anymore.

    Tagline for vaping: Why bother with a gateway drug? Let's do this!
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  17. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  18. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Not really. Deeply inhaling anything that isn't air into one's lungs raises questions. (We evolved to breathe air.)

    I do wonder what the technical reasons are for these recent illnesses. Is the dangerous element some chemical(s) in (some? all?) of the vapors? Or microbial growth in the vaporizors? Or what?

    The implicit assumption in some posts that individuals shouldn't have the liberty (the root of the word 'liberal') to make dangerous decisions in their own lives is a bit troubling though.

    If we generalize on that idea, then there goes mountain climbing, hang gliding, sky diving and all manner of dare-devilry. (Basically adolescent behavior in general.) Somebody might get hurt!
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Vaping: Because mainlining nicotine leaves track marks.

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