Harvard Extension School

WOW! That's the first time I've heard something along those lines from the lips of a Harvard grad. It certainly is refreshing. The Crimson seems to take particular delight in exposing Extension School students as being "lesser" Harvard grads.

I'm sitting here going through 1000 pages of Mencken to produce 7 for my last paper in EXPOS and I keep thinking about how much better my paper might have been had I the luxury of an entire day to spend at the library.

BTW, one of the students in my EXPOS class is a recent Harvard College grad. There are also former students from Yale and Princeton in the group. I have been impressed with all of my classmates. They are serious students and they give their full attention to the class.

There are a few people who take classes at HES that don't meet the standard but those folks almost never complete an actual degree. It's telling that they offer so few at commencement every year.

Another thing about the HES ALM program. The thesis requirement is a significant obstacle for many students. Apparently, it is quite common for ALM candidates to finish all of their coursework but never complete a suitable thesis.

 

Re: Harvard vs Harvard Extension

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. For the education specialists, can anyone explain the difference between a Master of Liberal Arts and a regular Master of Arts if both would be (like the example above) in History? Is the ALM typically reserved for extension schools, and is therefore used to differentiate degrees in a quicky on a resume? Is it of a lesser standing than a regular M.A?

 

This would be my understanding....

MA in History probably refers to a master level study specialised in History...

Liberal Arts is more like general studies, covering various topics and thus they are not that "concentrated" in nature. You won't expect 90% of the study there was about History. (although I don't know what is right level "general" here, in HES's case, it is 70% of the credits are devoted to the concentration....)....

 

Re: Re: Harvard vs Harvard Extension

Here's how Georgetown University, which seems to run the largest such program in the country, explains the history of the MLA degree:

"What is a Degree in Liberal Studies?

"In 1953, Wesleyan University began a venture in Master's level graduate education that it called Liberal Studies. Aimed at secondary school teachers, this new degree was distinguished by being graduate, interdisciplinary, with a focus on the liberal arts and a schedule for working adults. This initiative was followed by others, including Dartmouth College, The Johns Hopkins University, St. John's College, Southern Methodist University, The University of Southern California, and The University of Oklahoma. In 2005, there are 130 colleges and universities throughout the United States and Canada that offer graduate Liberal Studies degrees designated as the Master of Arts in Liberal Studies (M.A.L.S.), the Master of Liberal Studies (M.L.S.), or the Master of Liberal Arts (M.L.A.)." http://liberalstudies.georgetown.edu/DLS/dlsgeneral.htm

In short, it is a graduate degree which is the outgrowth of adult interest in advanced study, taking advantage of growing leisure time, wealth, and urbanization (most programs are in urban or suburban institutions), that is designed to be more fexible than traditional MA degrees. For instance, it eschews language requirements, a thesis, and accomodates diverse academic interests (normally only 40% - sometimes 50% [eg, Columbia] of courses in one field are allowed, making it a unique degree in interdisciplinary studies). Some (many?) also offer undergraduate degrees in liberal studies. Many schools use the MLA program to support the study of the humanities, an area lacking the financial base and alumni resources of professional and engineering programs.

Here is the homepage for the Association of Liberal Graduate Studies Programs - http://www.aglsp.org/
Here is a hot-linked membership listing http://www.aglsp.org/current-1.html

Now, Harvard is not a member, and their ALM program is unique in at least two repects: they don't discourage field specialization, (but only around 70 or 80 % of all courses) - in fact, they require a field of specialization; and they require a full-length master's thesis (around 70 pages of original research) for the degree - instead of a 25-30 page thesis paper, sometimes called a "capstone project." These two Harvard requirements serve to focus study, unlike virtually all other MLA programs. It's a different philosophy than what's become standard at many other fine places.

Finally, many standard MLA programs (see aglsp above) encourage alternatives to ordinary scholarship in their "capstone" - again, something no ordinary MA progam would embrace.

Is it lesser degree? If it once was, it isn't anymore. Like other Arts degrees, one gets what one puts into it - and how one converts the experience into personal objectives - like self-improvement, career opportunity, writing, or further education - is ultimately up to one's wiles.

Historian H. W. Brands (professor at University of Texas), with 17 books authored and edited, earned an MLA from Reed College after his BA from Stanford, I believe, and before earning his doctorate from Texas. (Unlike mere mortals, he also added a Master's in math from Portland State along the way!)

So, tcmak is basically correct -- but there's more to the story.

-Orson

 

Thank you all for the clarifications and knowledge.

 

OK.... Even though I may not have stated this as well as you may have liked, allow me to expand on my original statement. I am from Massachusetts, and just as I have said that I have seen people give more creedence to where a person went to school, as opposed to their grades/coursework, I have seen people at Harvard look down on people in HES. This is my opinion, not fact, and I thought that was explicit. If not, I apologize, and will make sure that I do so in the future.

 

Thanks Bink. However, I didn't need an apology. There are people at Harvard who will tell you that Yale sucks, Brown sucks and Columbia sucks as well. These people constitute a vast minority (in my experience) and their opinions shouldn't be given any creedence, especially since they typically don't know anything about HES. It is a disservice to suggest that this is a pervasive majority opinion when it's really just a few people.
Jack

 

Absolutely! I went to graduate school at OU, and I live in Austin, TX, home of the Longhorns, UT, etc. I've had people yell at me in the gym if wear an OU shirt, especially during the football season. Even more still, if I were to wear an OU shirt to a UT game, I could potentially be assaulted by a mob. This is of course similiar to someone wearing a yankees jersey to a Red Sox game in Fenway!

But in any case these people are a minority, but a very LOUD minority. I feel, from growing up in Boston, since there are soooo many colleges, there is a lot of collegiate bickering and posturing among people.

 

Death wish.
Jack

 

I've actually been to Yankee Stadium a few times in full Red Sox regalia, albeit in groups of 50 or more. The Yankee fans seem to be more good-natured about the rivalry, while Red Sox fans genuinely hate the Yankees and their fans.

 

That's because until up until 2004, the Yankees had won a few World Series! They didn't have the 100+ years of pent up rage that we sox fans had/have!

But yeah, I wouldn't wear a Yankees Jersey by myself in Fenway, especially during a Yanks game.

 

Had. Had. As in past tense.

I went to a game in Yankee Stadium last year, after the Sox had won it all. Since Steinbrenner had banned group sales (to exclude groups of Red Sox fans, no doubt) by then, I was with only a couple of friends, so we dressed incognito.

I must say, it was very sweet to not hear the "Nine-Teen-Eight-Teen" chant anymore.

 

I would have no interest unless they were offering a course that I could not get elsewhere. While it most certainly has the reputation, I am less convinced that the quality of education is any better than a number of other schools.

Now, if they happened to have a particular professor in which I was interested, I might consider it.



Tom Nixon

 

I've taken three courses for undergrad credit now at HES. One of those was via the Internet so please consider this aspect of my experience. The other two were taken on campus. One was with a Harvard professor from the writing department, the other from a visiting professor in the math department.

The main thing that you notice about the HES is that the classes are pretty straightforward. You have material to study and assignments to complete. You are graded fairly normally; there are few suprises. I wouldn't call the classes particularly difficult per se but my perspective might be skewed since I'm taking classes that are covering material that I've already seen before.

The biggest difference I have noticed is the quality of the other students. While they aren't all academic rockstars, many of them are extremely serious about their studies and make a significant commitment to the class. It isn't unusual to find students that commute an hour each way to take an evening class on campus. There are a few knuckleheads but you won't find them burning up valuable class time. Very few of those end up getting a degree. The program is simply too rigorous.

Another big difference you will note is that the Harvard professors are REALLY good. I haven't had an better experience than at HES. My writing professor answers emails personally and on weekends. He's been tremendously helpful in improving my writing.

If you can, consider taking most of your classes from Harvard profs. They have to be really motivated to teach at the College during the day and at the Extension School at night. It can't be easy and I can't imagine that the money is all that powerful a motivator. Most of them are also experts in their field.

HES requires that about half of the classes you take are taught by Harvard profs. This is a good thing since the teaching IMHO is better. If you are a nontraditional student, I don't think you will find a program that compares when factors like variety, cost, and academic rigor are taken into account.

As I mentioned in another post, one of the students in my writing class graduated from the College and decided he needed more writing instruction. If HES is good enough for a Harvard grad, that should remove any questions about quality.

 

I agree with Denver completely and comments made by Jack Tracey as well. My experience at Harvard College (undergrad) and HES (grad) were equal but different. The dominant difference between the two was social, not academic. In each school you could find people that looked down on the other and at the same time others that held a cetain degree of admiration for their accomplisments. The difference between the people holding each view was their own maturity level and their general awareness of the situation of the other. Having experienced both I can attest to this as more fact than speculation.

There are the minority who hold themselves up to be superior to the other but it was in no way a majority consensus. I often found the students of the other program to be of equal talent and never underestimated their ability. It would be a mistake for anyone to do so.

There is some distinction to be made between students taking classes for enrichment at HES and those seeking a degree. Those seeking a degree are a minority without question, only accounting for approx. 5-7 % of the student population. Among these students you will find some of the most talented and driven students you'll ever meet. They are well organized, competitive, and hard-working. They are also more mature on average than your typical college student. They have to be to get it all done while dealing with work and family commitments.

To further blur the line between the two, it is not uncommon for many students of the college to take classes in the evening and for some HES students to be entered into day classes. Yes, HES students can take classes in the College after applying for special student status. This requires a certain GPA and is limited to 3 courses I believe. Students from the College often register in HES classes to meet scheduling conflicts and the like. Was this an easy way out for them academically? Absolutely not! They often have the same professor as they would during the day and the College accepts the credit as equal in weight and quality. Afterall, courses in both are created under the aspices of the faculty of the College of Arts and Sciences. Is the professor any different teaching in the evening or on the weekend as he/she is during the daylight hours?

From personal experience I can tell you that the courses at HES are not easy. Of course there are some easier than others as you will find at any school. To cite an example; I found Personality Theory to be mangeable but Theories of Psychotherapy a killer. I also found Sustainable Development and Technologies and Politics of Control (a legal course) to be two of the most time intensive classes I've ever taken. These are all HES classes. I had a fellow College classmate in the last two with me and we both agreed that it was a mistake to take both in the same semester because of the extensive time and writing commitments.

This brings up a word of caution for those thinking of entering this program as a degree candidate. Be very aware of the undergrad course requirements. They are equal to any typical college program and in some ways more difficult to satisfy. Although this was not an issue for me, I watched with fear as many of the undergrad HES students mapped out their course requirements. I heard tales of those who were near the end but having a hard time with a particular course and in fear of not making it. Language seemed to be a killer for many.

I include the basic requirements here:

These units must include the following:
Concentration courses 40 units
Distribution courses 32 units
Expository writing courses 8 units
Writing-intensive courses 12 units
Moral reasoning course 4 units
Quantitative reasoning course 4 units
Foreign language courses 8 units
Upper-level courses 60 units
Harvard-instructor courses

As you can see, this is not a take a class here and there of any type and walk away with a degree. The graduate degrees are much the same with requirements for courses, distributions, HIs, and grades being very strict. The writing Intensive courses can be killers as they add to the already extensive writing requirements of many of the courses. Generally you take one of these per semester because of the time commitment. They often contain numerous papers per semester of a length in the neighborhood of 20 pages each. They are graded for both content and writing quality. See Expository Writing course requirements. Yes, you will learn to write well if you want to survive the grammar and punctuation obsessed TAs who often grade your papers.

To answer the question posed by a few on the acceptability of a HES degree for graduate school, I would say there is no disadvantage. It is common for most schools to track the continuing educational endeavors of their graduates. HES is no different and I think you'll find they are very successful. The grades and letters of recommendation are what count the most here. Most people outside of Harvard don't notice the difference academically. Inside the various Harvard grad schools do you really think that an admissions committee is going to give preference to someone from another school over an HES graduate? There are loyalties within a university no matter which of the individual schools you attend. They know you worked your butt off to get that degree as you would have anywhere else. I counted among my HES classmates graduates heading to Harvard Law, Med, and Business and many other top-notch grad schools.

In conclusion, I would say that HES is a great place for an education and as a doorway to grad school. It's not walk in the park but then neither is grad school. If you survive HES with a decent GPA you'll have no problem getting into grad school. As an HES grad you'll also be among the privledged few to get the annual Harvard Fund Drive requests. Now don't you feel special?

 

Can you tell me a little more about the Policies of Control class? I need to take that one in a year or so.

 

Dammit. That should be Politics of Contol.

 

I'll give it a try.

First off, keep in mind that I took this course a few years back under the guidance of different professors than those currently teaching the course. That being said, I will assume that the methodology is the same and the content modified to reflect today's issues.

This is the posted description for the course.

"This course examines current legal, political, and technical struggles for the control and ownership of the global Internet and its content, drawing upon a growing body of cyberlaw cases and commentary. The course focuses on three main themes: Internet governance, constitutional rights online, and intellectual property."

From this you should draw the conclusion that this is a law/technology oriented course. It deals almost exclusively with current issues. By this I mean that the subject of the day could actually be some court ruling made within days of class. The pace is quick and some of the questions tough but it is very interesting (if you like this stuff) and fairly graded. You do not need a computer science or law degree to take this class but an interest and basic understanding of each is very helpful.

One of the issues we dealt with during my class was the level of internet censorship in China. We tested this using a dedicated website and reported our results. This was a new issue at that time but has become relevant in recent days with the contract signed by Google. My understanding is that the Google service contract will "censor" all sites dealing with human rights or Tibet. This was the focus of our research.

The course format is lecture coupled with a heavy dose of online work through a learning system known as H2O, which utilitizes in part, a feature known as a Rotisserie discussion. Each lecture focuses on a relevant issue of the day followed by a posted Rotisserie question. This is where it gets interesting. Each student must respond to the question within a set amount of time, usually a day before the next class. All student responses are then sent to other students for rebuttal or commentary. Your response is also graded by a TA. If your response is submitted late to the system it is not accepted. If I recall correctly, the system actually emails you with a countdown timer for assignments which is nice but makes you paranoid as well. This is all from memory so if it's a little off my apologies.

The professors I had were excellent and the guest speakers top notch. Most were either Harvard Law professors or top of their game individuals from other institutions. One of the perks you get at HES.

This is not a course for slackers or those constantly late with assignments. Keeping track of time and assignments is a must for this course. Not that I advocate going out to buy one for this course alone, but I developed a great affection for my wireless laptop during this course. It allows you to research, write and respond on the run so to speak.

I feel this is a fair evaluation of the course and the teaching process. It's not intended to scare anyone off. I would rather give you the reality of the course and let you and others determine for themselves if they are interested and up to the task. There is nothing worse in my mind than to have someone say "oh it's simple!" and then find out it's a killer. I liked this course a lot and did well but then I have a strong IT background and a decent understanding as well as interest in the law.