Harvard Extension School

Harvard College vs. Harvard Extension

I accept that the Harvard Extension School is "as REAL and as HARVARD as any of its other undergraduate programs." But I'm also afraid that the snooty undergrad English major does have a point, at least as far as USNWR rankings are concerned.

The USNWR "America's Best Colleges" rankings are based, in part, on selectivity. In fact, "Selectivity Rank" represents 15% of a school's overall score. According to USNWR, Harvard has the nation's highest "Selectivity Rank", as determined by acceptance rates, SAT scores, etc. But this "Selectivity Rank" is based on the incredibly-selective admissions at Harvard College, not the open admissions at Harvard Extension School.

For proof, click on the "Harvard University" link at the USNWR rankings page listed above. This will take you to the USNWR "Harvard University at a Glance" page, which in turn provides links and other info for Harvard College. You will not find any mention of the Extension School there.

If USNWR were to separately evaluate the Harvard Extension School, it would inevitably rank lower than Harvard College, even if USNWR assumed identical academic quality for both programs. The Extension School, with its open admissions policy, would never come close to the College in the "Selectivity Rank" department, and so it would receive an lower overall ranking.

To put it another way, if USNWR "lumped" both Harvard College and Harvard Extension School into the ranking together, then Harvard's "Selectivity Rank" would fall from its current #1 position, and Harvard's overall #1 ranking would likely fall as well.

I am not necessarily defending the USNWR methodology; I am just pointing out how it works. The USNWR approach will rank a more selective program ahead of a less selective one, even if they are identical in terms of academic quality.

 

Re: Harvard College vs. Harvard Extension

In other words, the USNWR ranking methodology -- just like a snooty Harvard College English major -- is biased in favor of highly selective degree programs.

 

I think the dicussion above, especially on page 5, has gone about as far as it can go.

Then the bottom line question is one of utility and "halo effects." Does the Harvard Extension School* degree holder benefit from the rest of Harvard's reputation or prestige? Or not?

Jack Tracey, do you have an opinion? - or better yet, more thorough going evidence from alumi to report?

I guess the skeptic might say HES is "close but no cigar" - even if aroma, not smoking, is the desired result - high accomplishment, not bragging rights.

-orson
--------------------
*Obviously, the point of the way HES functions is not at all like undergrad admissions (who could go anywhere) or teaching (almost exclusively to the young); it means to be different. The point is to render valuable community service consistent with its mission of education and research - a form of institutional outreach making the larger university a good citizen, and citizens better through its good education.

 

I don't feel that I have any special knowledge or evidence on either side of this question. My ALB did what I wanted it to do, it got me into grad school although I probably would have gotten in with a BA from UMass-Boston too. The Extension School gets its fair share of ink in the various Harvard publications (like Harvard Magazine) and the HES grads get all the same privileges of other Harvard grads. I know of no objective measures that might further inform this issue. I suspect that it's a far bigger issue on this forum than anywhere else. Basically, it doesn't matter much to me. This is the only place in the world where my Bachelors degree comes up in conversation. People have speculated on both sides of the issue and have made some good arguments in the process. I'm guessing that you'd have to present your questions to Harvard if you wanted any sort of definitive answers. What would you look for? What might constitute clear evidence? What is the rate of graduate admissions for people with HES ALBs? Has an HES grad ever beat out a Harvard College grad for a slot in a graduate school program? I just don't know the answers to these sorts of questions.
Jack

 

Re: Harvard College vs. Harvard Extension

I generally agree, but want to make one distinction and reiterate an earlier point that I made: Harvard Extension graduate school is selective, but not in a manner that would show up on any ratings selectivity radar (I don't know about the criteria for entrance into the UG).

When talking Harvard Grad Extension, one must always distinguish between:

a). Just taking a course; and

b). Actually being admitted to the degree-bound program.

Curious course-takers and serious degree-bound students may all sit together in the classroom, but they can be like night and day. It's open admissions to take a class or two, and probably half the population of Boston with a Bachelor's have taken a grad course or two for yucks, but entrance into the program is based on receiving a grade of at least a "B" on the first three courses taken. One slip up, one B-, no admission.

Now I doubt that just anyone can pull that off. I've consistenly read that the courses are very rigorous and the professors are unrelenting in piling on the work and making you leap high to get the grades. In fact, there was recently a thread here on DI from one who said they were a recognized expert in their field, worked themselves silly, and only managed an A- in an ALM-IT course that was focused upon their specialty.

Harvard Extension grad school requires that the student finish nine courses with at least a 3.0 (and only half who've gained admittance to the program pull it off), then get a prof from the university (not an extension-only prof) to sponsor them in their thesis topic and get that through the system successfully (and only half of those who made it thus far make it this final step).

So, it goes like this: I have no numbers, but certainly only a miniority of those who are just there to take a class could muster the required minimum three Bs to gain admittance to the program (that's one level of selectivity), then only half who do gain admittance finish their coursework successfully (another level of selectivity), then only half of those who finish all coursework are able to make it that final excruciating thesis step (so close, yet so far--another layer of selectivity). I'd bet that the selectivity is greater than Harvard grad school by the time it's all said and done. And since the original pool of applicants to the Extension almost certainly have lower academic qualifications than the pool of admitted applicants to the regular grad schools, this is quite right, it should be. And of course, I'll bet that more than 25% of those admitted to Harvard grad school manage to complete their degree (I'll bet it's flipped on its head, more like 75%).

What am I saying? I'm saying by the time non-traditional student A has finished an ALM in extension, he's probably proven his or her mettle to stand alongside regular grad school student B who received his AM from the Kennedy School (or whatever they give). Who cares if the real selectivity starts before the admit or after admitted? They used to do law school the way Harvard Extension does admissions, and I seriously doubt that the quality of lawyers produced was any less than it is now, with the highly selective admissions.

 

Every graduate program that I'm familiar with, whatever its 'tier', requires that students maintain a B average in order to graduate.

I think that graduate school selectivity is something different. According to Peterson's, Harvard's graduate program in philosophy only admits 6% of its applicants. And I'd guess that most of the remaining 94% are strong candidates. Just being allowed to participate in a Harvard graduate course suggests that a student is exceptionally well prepared.

 

Of course, I know that. My wife had the same 3.0 requirements when she was doing her grad work in Math, I have the same requirements doing an MBA.

My point is that the one who makes it all the way--as opposed to the one who sits for a class--is Harvard material by definition. They are exceptionally well-qualified people. The majority who start out on the Extension path are not qualified even though they might think they are--these tares are jettisoned quickly. They must get not just a 3.0 in the first three classes, they must get through three classes without a single B- "slip up". That weeds quite a few out there, and statistically, you can be certain that the average GPA for one being accepted into the actual extension program is well over 3.0, probably more like 3.5, but that's just a guess. Even then, the average must be maintained, just as for any other Harvard grad student, and many more who leaped the first three class hurdle are weeded out along the way.

Even if they run this gauntlet of nine courses 3.0 or over, they must still get a prof to sign off on their thesis proposal. And do you think that's a perfunctory exercise given the bias that exists among Harvard faculty against the Extension? Once they get to work on the thesis, they must get the whole thing approved and get through their orals--again, anything but foregone considering that only half clear this final hurdle and make their previous years of work pay off with a nice Latin document suitable for framing.

My only point is that Harvard does not want to dilute their degree, so they hold extension up to the standards of a regular Harvard student. This gets rid of the riff raff along the way. Most candidates do not deserve to bear the Harvard seal of approval, and appropriately, the great majority do not in spite of sweat and toil and outlays of money.

Anyone who gets through the whole thing with the ALM is no joke--they are Harvard material. Who cares whether they proved it before or after they started taking classes? What else to call them when they've taken Harvard classes and gotten a Harvard-standard thesis approved and through committee? They've done the Harvard work, jumped as high as Harvard standards required (and no one has ever contended on any forum I've ever seen that Extension standards are "Harvard-lite", in fact, I'll bet they're a tidge higher considering the aforementioned biases), and earned the Harvard degree.

They are very different from the yahoos who sit for a class or two just to say they did it. They are Harvard University graduates, and they'e earned that label.

 

Of course, Jack.

I just thought that among the alumni lit and mags and neworkts of people, you might already know!

It's also possible that Harvard keeps such definitive info close to the vest. Proprietary info.

-orson

 

Yes, I understand. I am happy to report, however, that I do not have "networks of people." Perhaps that is why I'm living a simple life in rural Connecticut.

Jack

 

WOW!

Guys, I just registered for 2 of the 3 classes that I will need to apply for degree candidacy. Until now, I've been sweating the perception that others will have of this degree path. I'm glad that someone out there was able to put the whole thing into perspective.

I'm going for the ALB after almost 4 years at regular college programs. Two of those years were at a school many consider to be Ivy league. It's been almost 10 years since I had to withdraw from classes to continue my career. I'm scared to death of not being able to do the work so I've been going nuts getting a good head of steam up to tackle these two classes.

Little fauss, thanks for the insight. I chose Harvard Extension over other options partly because I wanted to make absolutely sure that the degree was rigorous and academic in nature. It's not going to be easy, which both delights me and frightens me at the same time.

 

There are a group of us (distance students) in the ALM-IT who are attempting to mitigate this lack of networking.

We act as a support group. We tend to take the same classes so we can act as a study group. Each of us have unique capabilities or access to research material that would otherwise be undiscovered; thereby improving the quality of our experience.

If anyone in the ALM-IT program is interested in being part of this informal group - just send me a message.

Just two more weeks until the fun begins.

 

Best of luck. Perhaps you'll be finished with you degree by the time we've organized the First Annual HES/degreeinfo Alumni Dinner.

Jack

 

That is great! Good luck in your endeavor!

 

I read most of the posts with interest, since I stumbled upon the NYT's article about HES.
A specific question that comes to mind, besides the implied scorn from regular Harvard students in that Crimson piece, is the eventual acceptance or transferability of a graduate degree earned at HES to other Harvard schools.
I know that it's a regular degree and all, but would "regular" professors look down upon it, when one would want to apply for a regular doctorate at one of the Harvard schools? I am particularly interested in one of the school's PhD in area studies, and I wanted to inquire about chances of transferring the ALM in Government once earned.
Thanks for any answers.

 

I can tell you with confidence that a degree earned at HES would transfer to another school without much difficulty. One of the reasons for this is the extreme difficulty that HES places on Masters Candidates. Getting the ALM isn't easy by any stretch.

People have transfered from the ALB program to Yale. People have also use the ALB degree to get into Harvard Law as well as Harvard Medical.

The biggest factor at this point is how deserving you are as an individual. My feeling from interating with the faculty is that their impression of you as a student and your commitment is what drives your chances, not your scores.

 

Outstanding

Dear Friends, This is an outstanding program, Yours Truly Nikolas Horthy

 

This is similar to the UMUC v UMCP issue. Harvard Extension is part of the 12 colleges of the university. However, people at Harvard College, seem to HATE people who go to the extensions school because it’s rolling admission. UMCP hates UMUC students in MD it seems because of the same reason, even though UMUC is part of the 13 institutions of the University System of MD (and there's 5 UM's in there alone!)

Being from Mass, I see this sort of liberal elitism all the time (I am not a conservative btw; this is simply snobbery elitism without a doubt!). People look at you from where you went to school all the time. HR managers will look at someone from Salem State College with a 4.0 GPA and another candidate from Harvard with a 2.1 and choose the Harvard grad because they went to a "better" school. I have seen people look at others as being less intelligent than them because they went to night school for goodness sakes.

I find this all sad and disheartening, when after all; these people all have the same goal of educating themselves and providing themselves a better life.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. Is it more that a myth? Is it more than one person writing one story?

I'll ask you not to propogate information without validation. There is no credible evidence that this is true. Unless you can show that it is true.
Jack

 

Harvard vs Harvard Extension

Just FYI:

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2005-06/programs/alm/help/#degree


Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?

Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools.

Does the diploma say Extension School?

Yes, in Latin. The diploma reads UNIVERSITAS HARVARDIANA; then, after the graduate's name comes Magistri in Artibus Liberalibus Studiorum Prolatorum (Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies).

How can I present the ALM on my resume?

Harvard University offers the following degrees in Extension Studies:
Associate in Arts
Bachelor of Liberal Arts
Master of Liberal Arts

It is acceptable, therefore, to list the ALM degree on your resume in the following manner:

Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts (ALM) in History

Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History

 

“However, people at Harvard College, seem to HATE people who go to the extensions school because it’s rolling admission.”

Not so. During my time at Harvard I think most of us had great admiration for those in the Extension School. We had an entire day to devote to our studies; they only had the evening after work.

Denver Mullican
Harvard ‘93