Harvard claim of Jesus' Wife papyrus scrutinized

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Abner, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Abner

    Abner Well-Known Member


    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    It seems every major religion founders had wives.
    - Siddhārtha Gautama (Buddhism)
    - Muḥammad ibn `Abd Allāh (Islamic)
    - Jesus Christ (Christianity) hmmm....not sure about Jesus, but it seems interesting claims from Harvard's professor.
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife.
  4. major56

    major56 Active Member

    And you evidence is?
  5. DxD=D^2

    DxD=D^2 Member

    Oh boy... I can see where this post is going to cause some debate. This is what I'm going to say about the matter.

    If Jesus had a wife, I believe it would have been mentioned in the Bible. Just think about this, Jesus had 12 disciples, three of which wrote synoptic gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke. Just these three would have given an account of his alleged marriage; especially since they wrote about his ministry and life. Also his half-brother, James also would have mentioned something about the topic; he wrote another book in the bible.

    Another consideration is that Jesus was off, out and about on his own ministry. A married man in Jewish customs would have been considered the lowest of the low if he did not provide for his family. Why would people follow Jesus Christ if he was not of great stature among the people of his time. "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke 2:52 KJV). Jesus increased his favor with both those he associated with and God (His father in heaven). No married man could have gone off, leaving his wife alone to fend for herself while he was on his mission.

    The only reflective account which could imply Jesus having a "wife" is when he calls his church as his bride.

    "One day some people said to Jesus, "John the Baptist's disciples fast and pray regularly, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees. Why are your disciples always eating and drinking?" Jesus responded, "Do wedding guests fast while celebrating with the groom? Of course not. But someday the groom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast." - (Luke 5:33-35 NLT)

    Jesus consider himself the groom. He called himself the groom, and his church (those who fellowship with Him) his bride.

    "Let us be glad and rejoice, and let us give honor to him. For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself." (Rev. 19:7 NLT).

    Ultimately people can chose to believe what they want to believe. As stated in the article, "King has said the owner wants to sell his collection to Harvard". This simply sounds like some fraudster trying to make up controversy and make a quick buck. If people want to know the truth, it's listed in the Bible. You can chose to disagree with my statement if you chose to, but I know the facts and believe the Bible. "For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the [g]breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart. (Hebrew 4:12 Amplified Bible)"

    I hope no one falls for such a lie...

    P.S. I know that my post may cause some controversy... Feel free to agree of disagree, this is my opinion, and my goal is solely to share the truth that I know. I hope you too can see what I see.

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    I agree and disagree with you. My supporting evidences for this argument is: NONE. :hail:
  7. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    You may have inadvertently opened another can of worms, given that many Christians do not believe that Mary had any children other than Jesus.
  8. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    I'm not saying that I agree with the statements below, but a case could be made in reply to many of your statements.

    It is really not conclusive to argue that something "would have been mentioned." In any case, the authorship of the synoptic gospels is far from a matter of agreement. In general, only conservative evangelical scholars consistently affirm this tradition. The case is even murkier when you realize that the synoptic gospels are only attributed to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, only one of which was one of the 12 disciples. The books do not have named authors, and it's likely the Luke and Matthew borrowed heavily from Mark and the theoretical document "Q." (Some think that the earliest source is Matthew, but I would disagree.)

    The more conspiratorial persons among us might argue that the books that are in the Bible were chosen precisely because they did NOT mention any wife, as opposed to other options.

    Even if the epistle of James was written by Jesus' brother, the purpose of the letter did not relate to the marital status of Jesus. Silence in this text really doesn't provide any evidence at all. I think the adage, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is particularly applicable here.

    Except that Peter was married, so this argument is invalid.

    I wouldn't say it's the only account, but it's a strong motif in the NT.

    I'm skeptical of the claims myself.
  9. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member Staff Member

    I forget the guy's name, but some professor came up with the theory that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. This was back when I was taking a course in Biblical Philosophy (2003?).
  10. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Jesus had a wife. Jesus had children. Jesus was gay. Jesus had no biological siblings. Jesus was not really a Jew. Jesus never really existed. Jesus did exist, but was never executed. Jesus is a characterization of an amalgam of many people. Jesus never claimed to be God's Son. Judas never really betrayed Jesus.

    Apparently, according to critics, absolutely every single possible imagined reality is true, except for what the scriptures actually say. Proof? Who needs it- it's the Bible, right, so every word of it MUST be wrong!

    Why even read the Bible, when you can instead listen to self-professed experts and scholars talk about what it really says, even when it doesn't say anything of the sort? It's easier this way. It's better to be ignorant.

    Similarly, I once googled "Bible contradictions" and several hits came up, therefore they must all really exist. No, I didn't bother opening up a Bible to see what it actually says. Someone else did that for me. Duh!
  11. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Don't forget that Jesus has been almost everyone's scapegoat. When something goes wrong..."oh, Jesus!":saevil:
  12. emmzee

    emmzee New Member

    "The key question is whether this particular gospel account can tell us anything about what Jesus was really like. Does this text prove that Jesus had a wife? Does this gospel provide reliable historical information? No and no. There is no reason to think this gospel retains authentic tradition about Jesus. It is a late production, not based on eyewitness testimony, and likely draws on other apocryphal works like Thomas and Phillip.

    Moreover---and this is critical---we do not have a single historical source in all of early Christianity that suggests Jesus was married. None. There is nothing about Jesus being married in the canonical gospels, in apocryphal gospels, in the church fathers, or anywhere else."

    Dr Michael J Kruger (PhD University of Edinburgh)
    From his article The Far Less Sensational Truth about Jesus’ ‘Wife’
  13. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, isn't it funny that you never hear someone say "Oh, Buddha!" when they stub their toe?
  14. I do follow the Christian faith but I also find it possible (not plausible) that Jesus could have been married or had a child, half brother, etc....The Bible was "wrote" by man...and the rewrote, changed, modified, simplified, and everything all throughout history.
  15. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Here's an update story (I confess, I haven't read it carefully). I think it would be nice if he was married although he was probably away from home a lot and died at a somewhat early age (what was life expectancy in the year 33?) He probably would have been a good husband.

    Reality check on Jesus and his 'wife' - Cosmic Log
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    This papyrus fragment is said to some from the fourth century. (How have they determined that?) That's fairly late.

    If this fragment is talking about the Christian Jesus, and assuming it isn't some kind of modern forgery, then what it seemingly tells us is that somebody in the fourth century thought that Jesus had married and had a wife. That doesn't necessarily provide us with a whole lot of additional reliable evidence about the historical Jesus. What would be interesting to learn is what theological significance these unknown (gnostic?) sectarians attached to Jesus' marriage and to his wife.

    Turning from this fragment to the historical Jesus, I'm not sure that it's all that outlandish to think that at some point he might have been married. Ancient marriages were often arranged by the bride and groom's parents and were performed at what by our standards was an early age. I'm not sure the customs were in ancient Palestine, but it seems to me that a marriageable young man remaining single into his thirties might have been rather unusual in those times. So, if there's any plausibility to that, then questions arise about what might have happened to Jesus' (hypothetical) wife and (possible) children. When he suddenly pops into the gospel accounts, he seems to have been single and unencumbered by family responsibilities.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2012
  17. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    Are you sure about that? I was raised Baptist (which last time I checked was Christian) and was always lead to believe Jesus did in fact have siblings as the Bible specifically calls out James as the brother of "our Lord". Anyhow, at last check it was Catholics who believed James had no siblings unless I miss my guess (which is entirely possible since I find little value in dogmatism and do not study it).
  18. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Both of you are correct. Catholics (the largest Christian denomination--although the Catholic church does not like the term "denomination") do believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
  19. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    "many Christians" includes Catholics, plus some Orthodox and some Protestants, particularly in the Anglican and Lutheran denominations. For example, both Martin Luther and John Wesley -- who would certainly qualify as prominent Protestant theologians -- accepted the "perpetual virginity" of Mary, and denied that Mary had any other children.

    I'm not endorsing or criticizing this view, just pointing out that it exists, and not just among Catholics.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2012
  20. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    A co-worker one shouted "Oh, oh, oh GOD!!!" at an absolutely massive American Cockroach which made its way into our office. At least she got that attribution right! :)

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