Greenwich University-Australian Approval

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Bruce, Jan 31, 2001.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    I read the article last month in the "Chronicle" about Greenwich getting their Aussie approval/accreditation denied. Does anyone know where they're going from there? Back to Hawaii, or try again?

    FWIW, I always thought of Greenwich as one of the better unaccredited schools until the whole Australian thing came up, then I didn't know what to think.
  2. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I'm with you. I've spoken to a Greenwich student who finished one of their doctorates in religion during the early 1990s (back when Greenwich School of Theology/Geneva Theological School was doing their tutoring), and their standards at the time were almost certainly very high. I think GU has very probably loosened up over the years, but I'm not sure exactly how much. Still, I certainly wouldn't call them a degree mill at all, even now.

    My understanding is that they still have a campus in Hawaii, so I guess they will probably revert back to that for their degree-granting base until they can come up with something more long-term. I don't know enough about Australian law to say for sure whether they can continue to use the Norfolk Island base as an extension site, so to speak, but I suspect that they probably can.

    Then again, I can't say I would be completely surprised if they folded tomorrow.


  3. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    The Norfolk Island authorities made clear in their response to Australia's denial that Greenwich is welcome to continue as a Norfolk Island school, and I suspect that is what will happen. But one Australian senator (Carr) seems so agitated by the whole situation, he says he will re-open the whole matter of the relationship between Australia and Norfolk.

    Throughout all of this situation, I have not had any problem with the academic situation at Greenwich, only the other stuff. Even the appointment of Emir Mohammed as a "Professor", misguided as it may be from a PR and vulnerability standpoint, is not necessarily an academic alarm: the man is very bright and talented, only a bit naive, as it were.
  4. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Agreed -- and the questionable stuff aside, he's still a young guy with an LL.B. from the University of London, an LL.M. in IT law from Strathclyde, and an adjunct teaching gig with UCLA Extension. I can see why they hired him, though it would be nice to see a well-publicized formal apology and explanation from the guy one of these days, just to set the record straight.


  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Actually, if I remember correctly, Emir has a B.A. in Philosophy from Western Ontario, and the Strathclyde LL.M.

    I always liked Emir, and thought he did a lot of good on a.e.d., but the whole RFK thing was his undoing.
  6. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    He actually has all three -- a B.A. in philosophy from Western Ontario, an LL.B. from London (earned after the LL.M.), and an LL.M. from Strathclyde.

    Agreed on the RFK thing; hard to imagine how he'd live that one down, but a good apology would be an excellent start.


  7. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    I thought I was losing my mind, so I checked the RFK website (, and no mention was made of an LL.B.

    I remember one of Steve Levicoff's crticisms was the fact that Emir had no law degree before going for the LL.M.
  8. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    Odd; Greenwich lists him as holding the LL.B. (which can be done through the External Programme, so I just took that as a given).

    And can I take this to mean that he's still with RFK? If so, I'm surprised -- I thought he dropped them ages ago.

    Not standard, but certainly not unheard of; the LL.M. in IT law is a highly specialized program, and folks with a good IT background are generally admitted even if they don't have a law degree. I was going to try the same trick with the University of South Africa's LL.M. in philosophy of law, but, alas, it was not to be.


  9. Frangop

    Frangop New Member


    George Brown (a regular NG participant) will have the answers to your questions.


  10. mcqueary

    mcqueary New Member

    OK, we discussed this to death once upon a time in that "other newsgroup" everyone keeps referring to, namely But I have to ask: what on earth is it that anyone would expect Emir to apologize for? He hasn't hurt anyone that I can see. He has merely hurt himself and his credibility.

    Does anyone believe that this requires an act of contrition? It would surely take an explanation and some time for him to regain the trust and respect of certain people, but I'm not convinced an apology should be expected.

    My $.0175,
  11. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    I think Emir has to apoligize for his hypocrisy. He always touted himself as someone concerned with academic integrity, then he goes and affiliates himself with a very questionable school (RFK), and simultaneously disappears from a.e.d. after questions about RFK surface.

    I think he has a lot to apoligize for, considering all the advice he gave out (which was a lot and usually good) must now be taken with a grain of salt, considering the fact that he crossed over to the "dark side". Not only did he hurt his own reputation, but also (potentially) all the people who followed his advice.

    FWIW, I always liked Emir, and I would welcome him back into fold if he came clean and apoligized for, and explained, his very questionable actions.

    Bruce Tait
  12. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Should contrition be a requirement forgiveness? Emir defected to the dark side, you mean? Does one forgive treachery? Perhaps he simply acted in what he thought his best interests, with no malign intent. I found him unoriginal, yet he seems to have done well for himself. Guess you just can't predict these things.
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    I can forgive treachery, with an appropriate apology.

    Also, I'm certain that Emir acted in his own best interests. That's the problem. He held himself out as a "watchdog" for academic integrity, then went and affiliated himself with a, shall we say, "questionable" school (RFK). That is not the actions of someone concerned with "academic integrity".

    Basically, Emir sold himself out for a few bucks, and most of us won't forget it.
  14. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    I agree that he sold out but I'm beginning to get a little edgy about the degree of purity required for benediction here abouts, so it's not so much about Emir as it is about the degree of toleration.

    When Emir was being raised to the priesthood by the G6, his flaws were palpably evident. Yet, now that he's being demonized, I think someone ought to offer some perspective.

    In many respects his move was not at all bright, in my opinion. Yet those who formally lauded him and who now condemn him, should have been aware that stupid is as stupid does. When first I learned of his passing from the fold, and then witnessed the inevitable excommunication that followed, I could not fathom the depth of surprise of the surprise and angst of the remaining collective. I mean, Duh!
  15. mcqueary

    mcqueary New Member

    Once again, I am not understanding what requires an apology. How did Emir damage you, Bruce? What did he owe you? He said and did some things that supported a certain philosophy on, and then he went away and did some things with his personal life that were at odds with the values he'd espoused on AED.

    Again, I stress that there's no question that his credibility among this group vanished. However, what psychological or physical damage did this do to you? Who does he owe an apology to, and for what (remember that hypocrisy is a victimless crime)? What should his apology be? ("Guys, I apologize for being the cause of your great disillusionment"?) Once he gives it, what does he get in return? Redemption?

    Are we taking ourselves a little too seriously here? (C'mon: "Treachery" ?!?!)

  16. mcqueary

    mcqueary New Member

    Well said. As one of the "chosen ones" (hee hee), I too am a little concerned at the level of seriousness attributed to this "offense". The kid made himself a running joke in AED, but I can't see who got hurt by this. OK, in fairness, my sides hurt from laughing the first time that I heard Emir was a "faculty member" at RKU. I guess that's what the apology should be for. ;-)

  17. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member

    I'm with Larry on this one. I'm not Emir's parent. He doesn't owe me an apology because he's been a bad boy. Would I trust him now? Probably not. But he doesn't do anything in my life for which trust is required.

    If he wanted to start posting here, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Look, we all make stupid mistakes. We all make poor choices from time to time. I've made my share. He's young and he made a mistake. Get over it.

    Tom Nixon
  18. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    I think I came across wrong here; I suggested the apology thing for his good, not ours. I think it would be a good PR move on his part. I didn't mean he should apologize for our benefit; he hasn't done anything to me, so I wouldn't know what he'd be apologizing to me for, exactly.


  19. George Brown

    George Brown New Member

  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks George!

    When you say Australian qualifications, do you mean they can't offer programs in Australia, i.e., only offer degrees to non-Australians?

    Also, what do you think Senator Carr's chances are in "getting" Greenwich?


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