First Year Online of a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (ND)

Discussion in 'Nursing and medical-related degrees' started by Jonathan Whatley, Aug 2, 2022.

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  1. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't those autonomous FNPs do everything an ND can, plus prescribe medicine and do certain standard medical procedures? Nurse practitioners have strictly wider scope of practice, science-based education, and are members of a profession that actually enforces real standards of care. What would a role for an ND be, then?

    I can envisage accredited online DNP program focused in intergative medicine. You know, if patients insist on doctorally-qualified practitioners.
     
    Alpine likes this.
  2. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    The University of Minnesota is a good example of that. They have one. Price tag is over $80K there, however. There is also an on-campus component that seems a little extensive overall to the point that it conflicts with their "delivered online" messaging just a bit, but considering some of the things a practitioner may have to do, especially working independently, it's necessary.
     
  3. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    There are certainly NPs that are open to integrative medicine. I'm not sure what the percentage of NPs that live in States that allow for autonomous practice that actually embark on a private practice business venture. Even for MDs and DOs, private practices are becoming obsolete and many belong to a group practice to share in the overhead costs of running a practice. My point is, that it is a high financial risk to embark on a private practice venture for any provider. Chiropractors and Naturopaths often advertise to hire an autonomous NP and offer the security of a salary and other benefits. They seek like-minded NPs that want to make a difference in alternative medicine. As I conducted a search for the average salaries of naturopathic physicians, I was surprised to see a range between $60 and 130K/yr. Perhaps hiring an NP attracts more patients that are fed up with a number of issues associated with medical physicians but still gives the patient the ability to get a prescription from a caring provider that is open to evidence-based alternatives. It appears to be a win-win scenario. There is a board certification for NPs who desire another specialty although there are not many advanced practice holistic nurse practitioners in the country. This certification can be obtained through experience, so spending $80,o00 is not necessary for those that are already licensed NPs. Certification Overview - American Holistic Nurses (ahncc.org)
     
  4. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

  5. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I don't know about that particular organization so I'm not saying anything about that one, but when it comes to holistic organizations you have to be careful as they may cause a knock on your reputation. Some holistic organizations are engaged in quackery. Personally, I would go the certification route, but someone who would go into the Minnesota program is likely looking for a higher profile position, and given that price tag they better be.
     
  6. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    The University of Minnesota program you are referring to makes one eligible to take the Holistic NP certification that I mentioned. "Some of our IHH graduates choose to take the Advanced Holistic Nurse board certification (AHN-BC) through the American Holistic Nurses Credentialing Corporation (AHNCC). Learn more about the scope of practice with this certification."
    Integrative Health and Healing | School of Nursing (umn.edu) This is the school you recommended. Correct? Apparently, they offer dual specialty if desired in Adult or Psych with Integrative Medicine.

    Why get into $80,000 in debt when a nurse practitioner can become certified in family practice and then if interested obtain the Holistic NP through the experience pathway? I personally think it is foolish to focus on an integrative medicine pathway as one's primary specialty. Get the whole pie in family medicine then add integrative medicine to your base knowledge later if that is your thing!

    Whatever!
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  7. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I never recommended the school nor the program, I only referenced them.

    I also stated that I knew nothing of that holistic organization. I don't know its reputation. My comment was a general statement about the concern of attaching your name to holistic organizations in general as there are lots of bad eggs that can ruin a reputation.

    Quite a few Nurses want the DNP and for obvious reasons. If you're going into a program like the University of Minnesota's you already know you're going to spend a lot of money whether you choose Integrative Health or otherwise. I'm not disagreeing with the route of going after a more accepted specialty. I'm also not disagreeing with adding IH as a certification, I said it myself:

    At the same time, some people may want that specialty and nothing else because they deeply believe in it, so, there is an option for that. Whether they do it or not is none of my personal concern, it's their path to choose.
     
  8. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    I’m not sure what your background in healthcare is but from my experience having a solid knowledge of family medicine gives one a foundation to build upon whether MSN or DNP level. The integrative medicine track is worthless without the foundation. Hence the word integrative. Also, the academic degree level really is meaningless once one is board certified in their speciality at least in the nurse practitioner healthcare provider role. The DNP may be useful for getting a job in academics or perhaps management but we are comparing apples and oranges. People need to understand the DNP is a degree that may or may not be clinically oriented. The history of nurse practitioner tracks began with post BSN certificate then masters and now DNP. There are seasoned and grandfathered certificate NPs that can run circles around DNP graduates. The DNP is simply the new entry point but there are numerous MSN programs that still accomplish the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  9. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That's neither here nor there in regard to what I've said. It's an available option and the choice to do it and deal with what comes with it, or not do it, is up to the individual. The outcome of that choice is for the individual to deal with.
     
  10. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    I simply replied to You calling Holistic NP certification a “quakery.” Apparently, you didn’t even research the program you posted! Which means you really don’t know what you are talking about!
     
  11. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    That's not what I said. I will repeat one last time, hopefully this time you'll read it carefully:

    "I don't know about that particular organization ***so I'm not saying anything about that one***, but when it comes to holistic organizations you have to be careful as they may cause a knock on your reputation. ***Some holistic organizations*** are engaged in quackery. "

    So again, I'm obviously speaking about some of these organizations, not all, and not this one in particular. I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding about any of that.

    Alpine, seriously, what is your problem? You're creating an argument where one doesn't exist and you've done this on the other board, too, and it's worrisome. You find some way to take offense to something for no reason at all. All I did was bring up an online Integrative program for Nurses because Stanislav mentioned the subject. There was nothing more to it, and all of this you're adding has been unnecessary. It wasn't a "recommendation" as you erroneously called it, it was just a reference. I literally stated that I knew nothing about that particular Holistic certification program you mentioned, so why you're making up a reason to go after me over it bizarre, and uncalled for.

    I have nothing more to say to you on this, and whatever is going on with you I hope you straighten it out because this has gotten old, smh.
     
    Maxwell_Smart likes this.
  12. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    In response to Stanislav, The ND is in a difficult position. Perhaps more States will expand the scope of practice in the future but for now, it seems like a huge investment of time and money for minimal scope. The NP has a pathway to obtain Holistic certification but the website shows only 24 Advanced practice providers in th country telling me they aren’t very interested.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  13. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    You brought up University of Minnesota not me! I simply acknowledged their program leads to board certification for holistic NP. I think you are the one that needs to let it rest! Holy mackerel!
     
  14. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Everyone knows there is quakery in this area. Nothing new there! The discussion appeared to be focused on “legitimate” pathways to integrate holistic, naturopathic, herbal medicine, etc. Like I said, there is an increase of interest in integrative medicine among allopathic clinicians and nurse practitioners.Is it quackery? That’s a whole other debate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Quakery? I tell thee, friend, I know of none, in this field. Quackery? Now that's a whole 'nother ball game! :)
     
  16. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Indeed! Thanks for the spell check.
    kwakzalver
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  17. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    The link to the article I posted discusses the phenomenon of the power of placebo in naturopathy as well as anecdotal evidence. Integrative medicine seeks to integrate the scientific and evidence based model into practice by combining the allopathic or conventional practice of medicine with the alternative. This pathway attempts to avoid quackery or give the inpression of avoiding quackery. In the case of herbal medicine use, much of it has not been through the clinical trial process to determine safety, toxicity levels, side effects and other attributes that may be beneficial or harmful.
     
  18. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    My problem is that you quoted me and said, "when it comes to holistic organizations you have to be careful as they may cause a knock on your reputation." I didn't interpret this as a "general statement" but as a direct caution/warning to me as if I am too ignorant to know that. I was simply referring to the bonafide certification program that the University of Minnesota program suggests. I agree with you in "general", that shady holistic certifications exist and that one needs to be careful to protect one's reputation!
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  19. Maxwell_Smart

    Maxwell_Smart Active Member

    LOL! What... in the... WORLD, are you talking about? Man, you've had a real meltdown in here, lol. He wasn't saying anything about YOU specifically, it was a general statement about the overall matter. All he did was post a topical link to Stanislav and then mention a very real concern with some holistic organizations. Nothing he said was disrespectful toward you, what you posted, or even the topic. I mean geez, if posting a perfectly topical link and discussing potential issues (something we do here all day every day) is a problem that sets you off, then you must be going off every day behind your keyboard when you come here and we only see it spill onto the board once in a while. Offline, I'd hate to see how you'd react if someone really did do something to disrespect you.

    I'd be lying if I said your meltdown hasn't been entertaining though, lol.
     
    Alpine likes this.
  20. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Noted.
     

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