First Year Online of a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (ND)

Discussion in 'Nursing and medical-related degrees' started by Jonathan Whatley, Aug 2, 2022.

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  1. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    National University of Natural Medicine (NUNM) states that it is "the first and only university to offer a CNME-approved year-one online Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (ND) program." After year one online, years two, three, and four of the program are on-campus based at NUNM in Portland, Oregon. Only the first year is online. NUNM states in its FAQ for this program:
    In addition to the ND program being accredited by the CNME, NUNM is institutionally RA by the NWCCU.

    Proponents describe NDs as offering a nature-based form of primary health care, whereas critics including ND-turned-skeptic Britt Marie Hermes question the profession's adherence to science, the quality of ND programs, and the career prospects of ND graduates.
     
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  2. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    I guess a good opportunity if you are geared towards that degree. The problem it is non evidence based woo. Britt Hermes (who you link) was a whistle blower about the nonsense and has been mercilessly harassed and even sued by some woman with woo cancer "cures". Hermes blew piles of cash on a worthless but accredited degree and began practicing. She became concerned about ethical practices and efficacy. She began exposing issues and giving talks to the scientific community and moved to Germany where she completed an actual science degree and I believe is working on a PhD.

    Her concern is that Naturopathic stuff has a lobby and in Canada and the US has managed to get states to license their "doctors" based on pressure and not evidence based medicine.
     
  3. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Another side issue is that like Chiropractors there is significant education cost and starting salaries don't necessarily make paying that back easy.
     
  4. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Plenty of natural approaches work. The problem for the Naturopathic discipline is that it often won't concede to the reality that it doesn't work for every situation, and the hubris of not conceding to that and directing people to Medical Doctors is a big mistake. The medical profession does such an incredibly poor if not indifferent job of prevention, maintenance and nutrition, that if Naturopaths focused entirely on that they would probably change their image for the positive all while helping to save countless people from many of these preventable issues to begin with.
     
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I agree100%. But I.m pretty sure the Naturopaths wouldn't like it. They want to be "Doctors" i.e Medical Practitioners - and be paid and treated equally to MD's. If they stuck to what they know - and referred paients to physicians when they (knew they) should - they wouldn't be in the same league they want - with MD's. .

    Nope - they wouldn't like that. They're just not having any.... so they bring pressure to bear...all they can.
     
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  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I agree with that. Medical professionals would be well-equipped to deal with prevention, but I don't think current healthcare system in this country incentivizes them properly. There are way too much wey better-compensated work they can do instead, and huge student loans push them into conventual "medical" procedures. However, it seems like "hubris" are such an integral part of NDs training and whole professional identity the profession is irredeemable. I rather see nurse-practitioners move into that space; they seem to be better trained already.
    Also, yes, just like DC, getting the ND degree seems to be a very poor decision, financially and career-wise. Maybe worse than DC.
     
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  7. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    It’s more about the scope of practice and less about “conceding.” If a ND knows a legend drug available through prescription would work, their hands are tied by not having the scope of practice to prescribe it so they recommend their honey, herbals, etc., when they know a broad spectrum antibiotic may be more suitable. I am seeing a trend of NDs and DCs hiring autonomous nurse practitioners with prescriptive privileges to fill the gaps in their services.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
  8. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Assuming the ND is aware, what stops him/her from telling the patient that an allopathic method is more suitable for their condition and that they should see an MD who would be able to prescribe it? Is it a matter of scope of practice? Or, is it just a matter of the ND making a decision to not recommend the patient see an MD?
     
  9. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    Basically, I think this is a great option for those who are wanting an online start off campus instead of on-campus. The first year is supposed to be similar to first year sciences where the courses are intro and less hands on. This is similar to the online Physician Assistant programs where you can complete the first and second year online with some residencies in between. Some schools in the Caribbean that provide medical education, has the "one year" bridge program for the hard sciences, it's entirely online, then you start your first year MD journey on campus...
     
  10. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    In addition, Yale has an online PA program too... Oh and there are entirely online programs from Logan University.
     
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    A few. Logan is primarily a chiropractic school. Besides the D.C. which is not an online degree, they have several Masters programs. I believe only the Master of Science in Health Informatics, M.S. Nutrition and Human Performance, are available totally on line. MS Sports Science and Rehabilitation has an internship - hands on. No Nurse Practitioner degrees at all or Doctoral degrees other than D.C.

    The online MS Nutrition and Human Performance degree "does not lead to a verification statement that establishes eligibility for a Dietetic Internship program or the registration examination for dietitian nutritionists (also known as “RD exam”)."

    If that's your direction. Logan has a hybrid degree, MS in Nutrition and Dietetics. It pays to read the fine print, here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    The Yale PA program is headed "Online PA Program." Turns out it, too is a hybrid program. As I said above, it pays to read the fine print. Sometimes saves DI readers an awful lot of time and once in a while, disappointment.
     
  13. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I don't know how prevalent this is with the online Medical Schools, but International University of Health Sciences in St. Kitts does the first two years of basic sciences entirely online. After that, you go into ground-based clinicals for two years in your home country. I feel like one other school is/was doing it that way or similar with the online portion but I can't remember for sure which one.
     
  14. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    For the most part, knowledge of one’s own limitations both legal and professional, lead to referrals to the appropriate healthcare providers. Training that focuses on mastering one’s scope of practice will make it easy to recognize when you are faced with challenging patients that need interventions beyond the providers capabilities. If you don’t recognize the limitations to practice, injury and harm is done to the patient. Lawsuits may ensue as well as criminal prosecution if these alternative providers push the limits of their scope of practice.
     
  15. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    State licensing bodies have stymied this by specifically requiring student physical attendance during the preclinical years in the country the med school is located in.
     
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    It certainly should. I do remain concerned that many don't do it, either because of an honest lack of knowledge of what the allopaths are doing, or pride. I want to believe the former over the latter, but sadly both can be dangerous either way, much like the stories we've gotten from Britt Hermes.
     
  17. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    There was a situation brewing that--at least at the time I read it--was set to crescendo in 2023 with the recognition of Caribbean medical schools which would also further affect online medical education. I know a number of states pretty much outlawed online med ed to become an MD, but I assumed that the covid situation might have loosened things up with medical distance education in a number of those states, and some of that assumption was bolstered by many (most?) medical schools going to online classes for a period of time.

    I suppose those restrictions on online medical education could always be brought back in more states as people continue to re-enter physical classrooms more regularly, but I hope that decision would only happen if the numbers prove that it should (i.e. lower tests scores, higher failure rates, etc).
     
  18. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    Many allopathic practitioners are recognizing the value of integrative medicine. The “pill for an ill” paradigm is under scrutiny for the many side effects and treatment of symptoms but not solving the underlying problem. Many Providers at a minimum are at least considering the value of alternative, less harmful, but effective natural remedies. The allopathic, osteopathic and nurse practitioner can easily integrate the best of both worlds. I am aware that the naturopathic clinician has a broad range of training standards from none to a four year naturopathic medical school with a residency that can include obstetrics and midwifery. A few states license naturopathic physicians but it is unlikely they grant prescriptive and surgical privileges. Perhaps limited but unsure?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  19. Alpine

    Alpine Active Member

    “Naturopathic doctors gaining new power”….at least in Canada and States like Utah. Legend drugs are non controlled substances. Maine will allow if NDs have a one year collaborative “relationship” with an MD. This article was written 12 years ago so perhaps more laws have changed??
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802635/
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I've run into some Doctors that are on that wavelength lately. My Urologist (top Urologist in his area), in addition to his MD, has a Doctorate in Ayurvedic Medicine. He keeps the Ayurvedic side in check (because, you know, some things they do would get his license revoked if he pushed it in the U.S.) but takes some of its best practices for nutrition and relaxation and his advice has helped me a lot. I also had a sleep Doctor that made recommendations to another Doctor who specializes in integrative health, and openly.

    As long as they don't start pushing Reiki or some other hokum, and the approach is backed by some reputable study, I'll consider it.

    State dependent, and even then, limited.
     
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