Feds strip authority of college accreditor behind ITT Tech, apparently fake university

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Tireman 44444, Aug 19, 2022.

  1. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I agree, Steve. Those 27 remaining ACICS-accredited schools were once 300 - actually 900 or so locations, counting branch campuses. . There can't be much left in the last coin-jar for the lawyers at this point. If there were some kitty or slush-fund somewhere, ACICS would be keeping up a barrage of legal stumbling blocks. My take: no ammo left. The anticipated crying and pooping is (hopefully) over. As for Fairfax, ACICS should have caught onto the situation - which was serious. And they didn't. I don't think it matters much about the profit / non-profit status - the writer had a valid reason to include the school as an example of what went wrong at ACICS. And the writer got a much-deserved shot in re: the Government's own "Visa trap," Reagan National U.

    Good job, Washington Post. Good job, Dept. of Ed. ACICS? I think they got what they deserved -- finally, after a pretty long re-instatement and stay of execution by the Trump Administration.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
    nosborne48 likes this.
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

  3. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    DEAC chugs along while everyone else is making TRACS. :p
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Still haven't heard a distinct reason for DEAC to exist....
    nosborne48 likes this.
  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Perhaps for schools that want to attain recognized National Accreditation, without having to don a false cloak of religion.
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Any unique advantages to National Accreditation as opposed to RA?

    (Not to go down this rabbit hole again, but you see my point. DEAC is as redundant as ACICS was when it comes to degree-granting schools. It's just an easier entry point to accreditation and Title IV.)
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    You said it yourself, Rich. "It's just an easier entry point to accreditation and Title IV." That's what many schools want and need - ASAP.

    Easier - in the sense of financial standards the school must meet, initial and ongoing cost of accreditation, academic requirements (including library holdings, number and qualifications of professors, etc.) and (usually) time to initial accreditation. That's the draw. And of course, Title IV. No doubt about it. Those are all big advantages - for the schools. Especially Distance schools - which are most of DEAC's portfolio.

    If it weren't for NA - a lot of worthwhile (and some very affordable) schools might never have left the launching pad - or even the drawing pad. Of course, I realize this argument will fall flat, if you feel that these non-RA schools should not be granting degrees in the first place. I can't fight that.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
    Rachel83az and Dustin like this.
  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Except to say that credential inflation is pretty well impossible to put back in the box, once it's been opened. That ship sailed, long ago.

    It;s a bit different here. Career schools can't grant you an Applied Associates in cosmetology, programming, welding or ANYTHING else. They just can't. I'm OK with that -- but that's here, not where you are.

    It;s a bit funny, actually. Now the private career schools can call themselves Colleges -- but still no degrees.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  9. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    Ontario's Private Career Colleges (PCC) have been a disaster. WSIB loves them because it's faster to send someone to an accelerated program and claim they are retrained than to actually help them get the job skills they need.

    I know probably two dozen graduates from these programs. Not one said they had a good experience. All were heavily in debt. And employers give them a side-eye.
    Johann likes this.
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    This is the tough one. So, let's ask historically: If we accept DEAC as a launching pad towards RA for DL schools, and we accept that DEAC accreditation will meet the "accredited" standard in many situations--how's that been working?

    I'd say, "fine." DEAC has been quick to drop schools that don't operate cleanly (unlike ACICS). And I know first hand that DEAC is way more stringent than ACICS was in terms of who they accredited, as well as the process itself.

    For years and years and years I would point out that no school ever went from DEAC accreditation to RA. This, I contended, was a sign that DEAC was less exacting and accredited schools that the RAs wouldn't accredit. (While also acknowledging the RAs intransigence in accrediting DL schools--especially WASC and SOCS.) But....that has changed dramatically. There are lots of examples of schools making the leap.

    I was never one of those "RA or no way" people. I just wanted to keep things in perspective. But things have changed. While I've always considered DEAC-accredited schools to be worthy of being "accredited," I feel even more strongly about it now. There are still measurable differences where consumers (graduates) of the degrees are concerned, but the gap is narrowing. And, as always, the gap may be immaterial to many people who do just fine with those degrees.
  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    All true - in spades. That's why I'm glad they can't offer "degrees." The schools would charge even more and the problem would be worse than it is - if that's possible, and in a pure money sense, I think it IS possible. These schools are often bottom-feeders, the biggest predators at the low end. I think their admissions / sales people are trained to spot people who can't - or think they can't - go to Community College or other recognized school for whatever reason - money, academic or whatever. They're often told the private career "college" will do for them in 8 or 10 months what the Public College takes 2+ years to do. The big lie with some exceptions. There are a select, very few (mostly one-occupation) private schools that do a unique job in a particular niche. Right now, I can only think of one - but there are a couple more. That's about it.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    A few?

    My wife, an RN for 35 years and a Nurse Practitioner for 15 of those, quit it all to go to a trade school. She's now an aesthetician and was quickly and gainfully employed right after graduation. Her classmates have varying results, of course, but for those who successfully completed state licensure (no mean feat), they're all employed. (The rest, for the most part, are doing things that don't require the license.)

    I think the more tuned in the school is to the specific occupation, the better the results. Aesthician schools have an accrediting body and a professional society, which really matters.
  13. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    I think in this case Johann was referring specifically to Ontario Private Career Colleges (PCC), which are kind of like an American trade school but worse because they are very expensive (one year programs cost $10-15,000 a year when compared with $4000 at a public community college for a one year program), they provide limited applied skills and zero recognition as higher education from public colleges. Where Americans would go to a trade school, in Canada (or Ontario at least), programs in fields like esthetics, plumbing or practical nursing are usually delivered by community colleges in Canada so the PCCs don't really have a niche.

    You can get a Personal Support Worker diploma (rough equivalent of a CNA in the US) for $700 through your local school district's night school - and they usually offer a payment plan, or you can pay $10,965 to get it from the PCC Academy of Learning Career and Business College in Fort Erie Ontario. In between those options is the public college. Durham College, where I went charges $2,722 plus ancillary fees which is pretty representative.
    Johann, Rachel83az and Rich Douglas like this.
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Here, too, aestheticians must complete their training at an approved school. It's a profession I'm not familiar with, Rich. Sorry it didn't come to mind. The school I was thinking of is the only private school I know of that qualifies people in Physiotherapy. Thanks for the info. Today I learned.
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    In the "free" section of the other forum, someone mentioned a 'free" program for PSW's. Enthusiasm waned when I posted it was only for Canadian citizens / permanent residents, who were completing or had recently completed High School. Interest died off completely when I cited the pay scale for PSWs.
    It's L-O-W.
    Rich Douglas and Dustin like this.
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the clarification.

    One distinction: in the US, being a "nurse practitioner" is an advanced form of nursing, beyond the RN. One must be an RN and then complete a master's or doctoral program in nursing practice (and complete additional residencies and sit for licensure). My wife completed a 3-year (full-time; 4-year part-time) MSN in Nursing Practice then conducted jointly by George Mason University and George Washington University Medical School.

    In the US, some RNs are trained at community colleges, but the 4-year BSN (which, again, my wife did long ago) is prevalent. What you call "practical nursing" is what we might call Licensed Practical Nursing or Licensed Vocational Nursing. These are both below the RN. We also have certified nurses' aides, as well as certified specialists in areas like phlebotomy. Again, these credentials are below the RN.

    Getting back to vocational training, a terrific way for people without a college education to get into the medical field is by becoming a nurse's aide or, even better, in one of the specialties. You can do this quickly at a trade school or community college and the demand for them is really high. People will do this and then pursue the RN on the side.
    Dustin likes this.
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    It's a fair question, though. The ancient "National Home Study Council" performed a useful function in its sphere. It accredited trade school level correspondence providers when no one else was doing so. I do not think that the DEAC does students a service by accrediting degree programs when (as happened to me) that accreditation isn't generally acceptable to regionally accredited institutions.

    I have no complaint about my LL.M. but I went into that program with a very specific purpose in mind. I was not led astray by doubtful claims about the utility of the degree and I paid far less than I would have paid for any other tax law program. (Actually, Taft Law is pretty good about not making doubtful claims about utility.)

    It's a two-edged thing, though. I don't think the rather hide-bound regional accreditors would be very receptive to D/L programs unless there was competition from DETC schools. That's just my opinion based on my own observations.
    Rich Douglas and Dustin like this.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Perhaps there is something there. It hasn't been researched that I know of. So, in the interest of jus' supposin', I'd suggest three much larger culprits: the World Wide Web and the destruction of defined benefit plans (in favor of defined contribution plans), and the Carnegie Commission (and similar efforts). I've been down this road before, so I'll keep it short.

    The advent of the WWW should be obvious.

    Defined benefit plans--pensions--kept many employees tied to their employers for long periods of time--even for their entire careers. It was hard to walk away from a half-vested pension and to start over somewhere else. Thus, employers could count on seeing a return on their investment in developing their employees. But with the sudden switch (c. 1980) to defined contribution plans, employees were much more mobile. They could take much or all of their retirement investments and go somewhere else. Employers, faced with this, were more reluctant to train their employees, preferring instead to hire them more "ready made." Employees, on the other hand, hand to get credentials other employers would recognize--and get them while working. That mean degrees earned nontraditionally.

    Finally, all of this has its roots in the wild and revolutionary '60s and '70s, when real experimentation in higher education began. Credit for prior learning, University Without Walls, the UECU, the rise of the Big 3, etc.

    That's a reversed chronology, of course. And I think there were other contributing elements, like the rise of the for-profits to go after all that student aid money, for example. The two-income household, where neither parent could quit work and go back to school was another. Diplomaism--the steadily increasing demand for higher and higher credentials for the same positions was a factor as well.

    So, I think the rise of DEAC's efforts to accredit degree-granting institutions might have had an ancillary effect, I do think there were even greater forces afoot. That's what I did my first doctorate in, so I hope I got a couple of things right anyway.
    Johann and nosborne48 like this.
  19. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

  20. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Rachel83az likes this.

Share This Page