Faux Ph.D. Kay Larson Misleading Gullible Consumers

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by OpalMoon34, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. OpalMoon34

    OpalMoon34 member

    I would like to bring to your attention the activities of one Kay Larson who has been giving advice to the confused victims of the now defunct Clayton College of Natural Health at All Experts Clayton College of Natural Health - Answers by Kay Larson

    Larson has a BA in Education from University of Massachusetts, a fake M.S. and Ph.D. from Clayton College of Natural Health, and a fake N.D. from Kingdom College of Natural Health. She is presently an "adjunct professor" at Kingdom College of Natural Health (please see: Faculty)

    Note that Larson has not disclosed her affinity with Kingdom College of Natural Health at All Experts and has been completely misleading people by unsound and self-serving advices such as the ones below:

    I hope that the real experts in this forum can provide real answers to those many people who went to Clayton because they don't know anything better and are now looking for advice. But this has been seen as an opportunity by vultures like Kingdom and they have sent this fake doctor Kay Larson to dupe the people. Kingdom College of Natural Health operates from a P.O. Box and is not even licensed to operate. Faculty members have unaccredited doctorates.

    More graduates from a "college" such as Kingdom means more people dying due to the administration of various quack procedures and practices as well as delaying the process of real diagnosis (in chronic degenerative diseases such as cancer). This Kay Larson is doing something seriously wrong. Imagine the number of ill people who will grow worse and die due to the proliferation of these fake doctors.

    One need not even register at All Experts to comment on Larson's answers, all he or she needs to do is click on the link that says "Add to this answer" and their reply will be posted. If I am only as knowledgeable about the laws and other things like the seniors here, I will go and do it myself. But since I am not, I urge you to please help these people at All Experts.
  2. BrandeX

    BrandeX New Member

    Wow, many of the posts she sounds like a real idiot at best, as scummy shill for one of these other institutions at the worst. There's just too much crap on there that makes for an obnoxious quote such as the ones you have above, and this gem:
    ...because non-accredited schools are inherently better. Don't be fooled by accreditation everyone, it makes schools worse! ;)
  3. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    It doesn't sound like she is talking about general education, rather, specifically talking about the educational approach to natural medicine, which very may well be limited at accredited schools (I wouldn't know, but neither of you addressed that point). She doesn't say that accreditation makes a school worse, only that accreditation narrows the allowable scope of an alternative program.

    I have never heard of Kingdom before, but it seems that the biggest issue anyone has with Clayton is with the content of their courses, not that the college was fake. No, it seems that the college was real, and that the courses were real, but that the things taught in the courses were either unverified or unverifiable. Sort of like those degrees in metaphysics, philosophy and the like.

    The most obvious fraud in that whole situation is that some graduates of Clayton use their degree as if it qualifies them to give either medical advice or medical treatment, which, of course, it does not. I guess one could debate how much culpability belongs to the school for that.
    That is the scary part. This could be a situation similar to the deaths related to psychic surgery. If the patients (or should I say, victims) believe that they are cured, or on the verge of being cured, by a fraudulent treatment, the lack of actual treatment could be devastating, even fatal.

    This situation, however, is somewhat different in that many of the "practitioners" actually believe that what they are doing works.
  4. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    I get what she is saying; their approach to medicine might be outside the box and there for can’t be accredited in the current state. Remember at one time people bleed people to heal; the people that opposed it were called quacks. I have no idea if what they are doing works or is real though. I would never go to this type of doctor myself. With them being unaccredited they are not held accountable for what they are teaching and that'd the part that scares me.
  5. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Her comments are self serving, and go for the same old tired conspiracy theories that a lot of the alternative medicine people reach for so quickly to claim persecution.

    First, there are indeed legitimate, DoEd accredited schools offering education in naturopathy. Just none that do so via distance learning, for the same reason there are no medical schools offering medical education via DL... there's (at least at present) no way to provide the level of instruction and education required for somebody to treat other human beings solely by reading textbooks. There is truth to the fact that the accredited schools have a more rigorous and rigid curriculum, but that's because silly things like anatomy, physiology, pathology, and various other disciplines turn out to actually be important to the practice of medicine, even naturopathic medicine.

    Secondly, Clayton was always a joke. Unfortunately, they were a joke that fleeced tens of thousands of people over the years, and given that they had almost no expense for teaching staff in proportion to the number of students they had, they had lots of cash to advertise all over the place... yielding them more students.

    Third, there are about 14 states in the US and several provinces in Canada that license naturopathic physicians. Not a single one of them recognizes naturopaths that graduate from Clayton or other crappy unaccredited schools. The states that license require NDs to pass a licensure exam, demonstrate competency, and, in turn, there's a level of oversight, quality control, and a clear delineation of scope of practice. So seeing an ND in a licensure state is not a bad thing.

    There is similar licensure and accreditation for other less-mainstream forms of medicine such as acupuncture and chiropractic, so the argument that accreditation is "too limiting" is simply bullshit.

    I have been interested in, studied, and spent time working in the field of holisitic medicine for close to 30 years. There is an unsavory history of suppression, and actions by Big Pharma and the like to suppress things... but most of that happened decades ago. The people that are still holding onto that crap as an excuse to avoid regulation are, quite simply, people who are too sloppy or don't give a crap about scientific research and evaluation.

    Oh, and I bet if Ms. Larson were to tell her patients that her only training was from an unaccredited naturopathic program... my guess is they WOULD care very much. But of course, she's not about to tell them and ruin her cash cow.
  6. Chip

    Chip Administrator


    So now there's another unwonderful naturopathic school, claiming the same fraudulent accreditors, trying to fleece students that have already been fleeced by CCNH.

    Does nobody have any ethics?
  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    *cowers in the corner* *wets pants* *cries like a baby*
  8. OpalMoon34

    OpalMoon34 member


    Would you be able to go to Clayton College of Natural Health - Answers by Kay Larson and comment on a post or two just so that the askers will have an alternative view?


  9. TMW2009

    TMW2009 New Member

    I was looking through the TOS at All Experts, and it seems that they simply don't care. They don't check the credentials on their 'Experts'. Anyone can simply sign up and ask to be an 'Expert' on whatever they want, and start answering questions people may have. It doesn't seem to matter whether it be good or bad advice. There just seems that there is little validity to the site and it's all pretty much Caveat Emptor.

    As long as they're getting site hits to drive the advertising on the site, they seem to be happy, no matter the results of the advice that gets published. And the more advice that gets published on the site in a particular area, the higher the results will appear in search engines.

    Kinda ugly business model if you ask me... And Allexperts seems to have been around and doing this pretty long without any major conflagrations or complaints that I could find.

  10. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Yes, I'll try to go over there and post, but I'm not hopeful it will be well received. People live in their denial, and we saw what happened when people tried to tell the holders of Kennedy-Western degrees how worthless their degrees were.

    The other unfortunate piece of this is that there really isn't any good alternative. All of the distance-based holistic medicine programs I'm aware of are unaccredited, and crap.

    I believe Tom Head dug up one good one years and years ago that's somewhere in the archive... it was an Australian or South African school, if I remember, and it was not an ND or another degree that would provide for licensure, but was a legitimate program in terms of the learning offered.

    The problem is, most of the people that would go for a legitimate holistic medical credential would not be able to hack the level of physics, biology, and chemistry required, nor maintain the level of scholarship required for a pretty advanced curriculum. Even a well-rounded holistic/naturopathic medical credential has much of the same underlying study of human anatomy/physiology that an MD degree has, because... to do the job well, you have to understand the piece of equipment you're working on, and the human body is exceptionally complex. The distance-based schools generally don't use rigorous texts or materials, instead relying on content aimed at a lay public that doesn't provide adequate preparation.
  11. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Geez, I didn't mean to dis you. In fact, I only skimmed your post before responding.

    This is just one of those things that really annoys me, because back when I worked for a nonprofit involved in alternative approaches to cancer and degenerative diseases, the physicians who treated our patients (who, by the way, were conventionally-trained MDs) were often stuck with cleaning up the aftermath of inept diganosis and ill-advised treatment served up by fraudulent naturopaths that graduated from schools like Clayton.

    Holistic medicine definitely deserves a place at the table, and there are quite a few diseases and conditions for which holistic approaches are quicker, less invasive, have fewer side effects, and, overall, work substantially better than their conventional medical treatment counterparts. But the sharp physician recognizes the situations where one or the other (or both) are best chosen.

    Unfortunately, Clayton grads are grossly unqualified to do much of anything. Clayton disingenuously says that its grads are not diagnosing, treating, or otherwise practiciing medicine, but that is complete bullshit. A quick Google search reveals dozens of Clayton grads (and grads of other equally unwonderful schools) holding themselves out as qualified to diagnose and treat practically everything. A few are so delusional as to believe they are qualified to treat life-threatening illnesses like cancer.

    Lloyd Clayton is simply evil. Who knows how many people have come to harm as a result of treatment at the hands of well-meaning but inept Clayton grads, or people who could have been helped but were delayed in treatment because they went to a Clayton grad instead of a properly trained naturopathic physician or conventional physician.

    I get passionate about this because I absolutely believe that holistic medicine -- the well documented form of it -- is extremely beneficial, and it always gets lumped in with the non-medical or otherwise poorly practiced psuedo naturopathy practiced by Clayton grads.
  12. OpalMoon34

    OpalMoon34 member

    Thanks Chip! As St. Francis of Assisi once said, “I made a difference for that one.” Even if you can only show one person that Larson's advices are pure BS, it will be worth it.
  13. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    That get in the way, quality assurance process of recognized accreditation is just way too constraining for those standards forsaken, unaccredited health schools. Unaccredited is the new world class.

    By her specific advice, it appears that even the DETC is just enough of government oversight to take an otherwise stellar unaccredited homeopathic center of excellence and turn it into just another bureaucratic constriction to the expansion of knowledge.

    If nothing else, it is certainly entertaining.
  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I saw no diss... your comment had nothing to do with me (I thought). I was humorously responding to the tone of your post, which was quite intense.

    FYI, I wasn't defending anyone in my post, I simply like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I will grant to Ms.Larson that she actually believes that Clayton was a good school and I will grant to Clayton that they actually believed that they were educating people. Whether or not their beliefs were true is another story, which I am unqualified to comment on.
  15. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    For what it's worth, John Bear had a number of communications with Lloyd Clayton years ago, before Clayton had any schools. John said he sort of stopped responding when it became clear that Clayton didn't really care about much other than how much money he could make.
  16. OpalMoon34

    OpalMoon34 member


    Here is the latest news on the Queen of Shill Non-Doctor Kay Larson ("Ph.D." from Kingdom College of Natural Health). She, along with a real doctor (or at least that's what their site claims to be), founded American Council of Holistic Medicine that offers, get this, board certification for natural health practitioners.

    According to this page, ACHM is now, along with American Association of Drugless Practitioners, an accreditor of Kingdom College of Natural Health.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2012
  17. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator Staff Member

    It's really funny that I work with someone named Kay Larson. I'm going to have to show this to her.
  18. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Clayton had several fraudulent accreditors it claimed over the years, one of which was AADP. Another was operated by a Clayton graduate (who had no other credentials) out of his house.

    Westbrook University, another unwonderful "holistic medical education" program, had two fake accreditors, both of which were run by people on their board of directors. One accreditor was operated out of the back of a health food store, the other out of the founder's home. I believe one or both of these fake accreditors also accredited Clayton.

    It never ceases to amaze me that these frauds think nothing of creating fake groups to fakely attest that their fake credentials qualify them to treat people.
  19. urgal

    urgal New Member

    Just out of curiosity, for those who might have been taken in by Kay Larson, what is your connection/experience with her? Have you ever been given what you regard as bad health information from her, or know of people who have? Have you ever contacted or consulted her directly? When you write: "But this has been seen as an opportunity by vultures like Kingdom and they have sent this fake doctor Kay Larson to dupe the people," what specific actions are you talking about?
    The problem I find with both internet claims (for natural medicine) *and* internet criticism (by self-appointed debunkers like you), is that they are both incredibly light on the facts. They post quotes and you post quotes, but nobody posts facts. So, if you don't mind me asking, what are the facts that you are bringing forth here, about any of the principals: Clayton, Kay Larson, Kingdom College of Natural Health? So far as I can tell, you haven't given us any!
  20. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    I can't speak for the other posters in the thread, but my personal concern is the issue of someone representing herself to the public as holding Masters and Ph.D degrees in nutrition, and using those degrees, presumably, as the basis for her qualifications to provide counseling, treatment, or whatever she claims to provide, when the degrees in question are from a school whose degrees are not recognized by any legitimate, credible accreditor or by the US DoEd.

    The problem here is, by using the "Dr." in front of her name, she's implying a level of training and experience that one would have if they graduated from a properly accredited program. It becomes an issue of integrity.

    If the person were to say, for example, "My degrees are from unaccredited schools, but I believe that the quality of my education is such that I'm capable of providing good service to my patients" then that would be one thing... but, of course, no one with an unaccredited degree does that, for the simple reason that no one would go to them.

    Again, I believe the issue has to do with the school, in this case, deceptively claiming that it is accredited, and listing as accreditors organizations that are unrecognized by the US DoEd. There are plenty of schools offering classes and certificates in holistic health topics who clearly say "We're unaccredited", but misrepresenting one's accreditation serves no other purpose except to deceive people, presumably, into believing that degrees earned will have more value than they actually do.


    Fact: Kay Larson, as near as anyone can tell, does not have any credentials from a school recognized by any DoEd-approved accreditor that would qualify her to use the title "Dr." or "Ph.D". She does apparently have an unaccredited doctorate, which is illegal to use in at least two states, and, based on my best knowledge, does not qualify her to practice in any state that licenses alternative practitioners.

    Fact: Clayton College of Natural Health was entirely a distance-based program, with little academic rigor, no recognized accreditation, and a long history of shady practices. The CCNH degrees, as far as I am aware, had no laboratory component, no internship, residency, or clinical component, yet CCNH "graduated" thousands of people with ND, Ph.D and other degrees, and these people then held themselves out as naturopathic physicians, nutritionists, and other "holistic health professionals."

    Fact: California, where Kay Larson practices, is one of a handful of states where Clayton spent large sums of money and ultimately succeeded in derailing licensure laws that would have provided a base standard of educatoin and licensure for naturopathic physicians and alternative healthcare providers. Had Clayton not succeeded in preventing proper licensure, as some 17 other states have enacted, then people such as Kay Larson, who hold unrecognized credentials, would likely not be able to practice legally.

    Fact: the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the largest professional association of dieticians, nutritionists, and allied professionals, does not recognize degrees from Clayton College as credible, and qualifying for membership in the Academy.

    Fact: There have been at least three criminal actions against Clayton graduates for gross negligence and/or incompetence stemming from "treatment" provided that, in at least two cases, resulted in deaths that were completely needless.

    I am a firm believer in the value of alternative/holistic medicine; I have worked in professional settings with MDs, NDs, and other medical professionals using holistic/alternative approaches. But there's a big difference between someone trained at a recognized, properly accredited school, and someone who received a degree from an unaccredited school, entirely by distance, with no actual contact with patients or clinical supervision.

    While it's not impossible that someone without training at an accredited school could have useful information or services to offer, I have a real problem when any organization or individual misrepresents qualifications or credentials in order to get new students/clients/patients.

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