Dumb, dumb question!

Nope.

http://www-net.com/univ/list/ivy.html

 

For funny sounding school names on diplomas, my personal favorite was the "Nashville Night YMCA School of Law", or something like that, an unaccredited but perfectly legitimate Tennessee Bar qualifying program.

The school still exists and continues to generate Tennessee lawyers, but I hear they changed the name.

Pity.

 

Ummmm....no.

Harvard College is one of the most selective schools in the world, with a small percentage of applicants being accepted.

Harvard Extension is open-enrollment, which means they accept anyone with the money to pay, as long as there is room in the course.

The requirements for a degree are rigorous, for sure (I know many, many people who have taken Harvard Extension courses, but know only one who actually graduated), but with apologies to Jack Tracey (the one person I know who did graduate), you really can't compare the two.

 

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Ummmm....no.

Harvard College is one of the most selective schools in the world, with a small percentage of applicants being accepted.

Harvard Extension is open-enrollment, which means they accept anyone with the money to pay, as long as there is room in the course.

The requirements for a degree are rigorous, for sure (I know many, many people who have taken Harvard Extension courses, but know only one who actually graduated), but with apologies to Jack Tracey (the one person I know who did graduate), you really can't compare the two.
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Bruce:

I agree and disagree. As a practical matter, so long as the one reviewing your degree is in the know about Harvard Extension, I agree, it's going to be perceived differently from Harvard College. However, the courses taught are the same and at least in theory--and also probably in reality--the students are held to the identical standards that Harvard University students are held to. You must do the same amount of work, you are subject to the same standards, most courses are taught by the same professors.
As you alluded to, few manage to climb the mountain. For example, I've read that only 25% of those who set out to receive the MLA, the Master's-level Extension School degree, ever actually run the gauntlet of 10 courses and thesis.
The Master's program can be a nightmare. Half of all who finish the coursework never manage to get a member of Harvard faculty to sponsor their thesis and get said thesis approved. Imagine completing all those courses, spending $20K and understanding it's still a crap shoot as to whether you'll ever receive the degree. The reasons for this are various: surely, not everyone capable of completing a series of courses is also able to produce original scholarly research, but my guess is there's another factor at work. Given the very likely bias of most Harvard faculty, I'd guess that most have little affinity for the underdog, and that graduate Extension School students are viewed with roughly the same pleasure as ancient city dwellars viewed savage nomads battering the city gates. Any thesis proposal circulated through their ivory towers with "Extension" attached thereto is probably going to be rejected unless exceptional. There are probably thesis proposals in the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences gladly sponsored by faculty that are inferior to those rejected from the Extension--just a hunch.
Also, Harvard Extension, while open admissions, is a legitimate part of Harvard University and does have a history of nearly a century. I would be wary judging the quality and validity of an education based upon the difficulty of being admitted. There's something to be said for being challenged by the best and the brightest sitting in the seat next to you, but in my opinion, that factor's dwarfed by the value of being challenged by the best and the brightest who stands at the front of the class, and that person's the same as "Harvard proper" for the majority of Extension school courses.

 

Technically no, but many consider it as such.

 

Technically no, but many consider it as such.
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DaveHayden:

Penn State is a respectable school with some very good programs, but considered in the same breath as Ivy League? Not in the same paragraph or on the same page! Now, if you wanted to argue that NYU or MIT are "Ivy equivalent", then I'd say you have an argument. Or if you were to open up the geography a bit beyond the Northeast, then I'd say you'd have to put Stanford, Berkeley, Washington University in St. Louis, Rice, Emory, Michigan, Chicago, Northwestern, Purdue, Vanderbilt, and of course, Arizona in the Ivy category. Uh, just joking on Arizona, they're my alma as all can see, but they're about in the same camp as Penn State: good state school, some very good graduate and professional programs here and there, but by no means Ivy league or even a step below. You wouldn't happen to be a Nittany Lion, would you? My rule is: any school--other than Michigan--that has won a national championship in any sport other than lacrosse or field hockey or rowing in the last 50 years is not Ivy League material.

Any other nominations for nationwide Ivy League equivalents that I may have missed or do any of you think I was too generous in my rating of one or more of the schools I mentioned?

 

When I said they are the same I meant the wording on the diploma is the same. I wasn't talking about the education. All the degrees have the same wording except that the individual college is listed also. And the diploma is now in Latin.

 

I realize that, but the original question (and the follow-up by aikna that I referenced) was how the degree was perceived.

Harvard Extension could require twice the work as Harvard College, but an Extension degree isn't going to carry nearly the same weight as a "real" Harvard degree. That's just reality.

I got a first-class education at UMass-Lowell, but I'm not going to kid myself that my degree is going to be held in the same regard as a degree from a top-flight Criminal Justice school like Michigan State or Florida State. Unfortunately, perception is usually everything in academia.

 

I somewhat agree but I believe it in my case, for example, since I am already in the field (I have a B.S. Software Engineering from Boston University) that the degree is associated with, it could only help and be perceived well, even if it's just an extension degree. (I'm already taking classes for the ALM in IT)

 

I agree that an Extension A.L.M. will serve you very well.

My only point is that an Extension degree will never be perceived the same as a "regular" Harvard degree.

 

For fun only:

State schools: Virginia, Wisconsin (Madison), UCLA.

Private: Cal Tech, Rockefeller (as a grad school certainly)

Delete: Vanderbilt, Brown , Dartmouth , and NYU

It's an interesting debate on the merits of the extension degree. I suppose if one gives a lot of weight to "perception" as Bruce notes, then the extension degree will always require a footnote or some throat clearing.

However, the real proof is in the work done, and in this regard it appears that the extension degree measures up. The only difference between extension and non-extension is the idea/perception that those in "regular" Harvard were/are cream of the crop, or he/she wouldn't have gained admission. The flip side, I suppose, is the perception that those in the extension program are not cream of the crop, or he/she would have gotten a "regular" Harvard degree. Of course, neither one of these is absolutely correct.

Practically speaking, other than bragging rights at parties, the boost one receives by being admitted to a prestigious school lasts until the first day of class, at which point it's almost irrelevant. At that point, doing the work becomes the only thing that matters.

I would bet that if you compared the average work of extension graduates (the few that make it through) with the average work of regular Harvard grads (almost all of whom make it through), you would find almost no perceptible difference. So either you weed them out on the front end, or you weed them out in the process. End result is the same.

The potential confusion is one reason why Berkeley does not offer degrees via its extension school (and probably never will). They also do not allow extension instructors to be called "professor," and, by and large, regular Berkeley professors do not teach extension courses and vice versa.

As a point of comparison, Stanford offers an extension MLA (sadly, not DL) that is selective, though probably not as selective as regular Stanford (my guess only).

http://mla.stanford.edu/index.htm

From their FAQ:

"How selective is the Master of Liberal Arts program?
The MLA is a highly selective graduate degree program. The number of applications received and the percentage accepted varies each year. The admissions committee admits every applicant it believes is qualified to embark on graduate-level work in the humanities."

 

The biggest barrier to a Harvard education is the COST.

 

Tom57:

I agree with UW-Madison so long as you're primarily talking grad school, research programs--they pretty much wrote the book on grad research and how to make a dollar on it, and they've reaped the benefits for decades with some outstanding grad programs. I'll also agree with Virginia, not so sure about adding UCLA (if you add them, you also have to add USC across town). I think you're right about Brown, from what I've heard--although I've never set foot on their campus--they are the "weaker sister" of the Ivy League. However, I think that Dartmouth belongs there and NYU is in my mind pretty much equivalent. Vandy (as well as Purdue) are a shade off the mark, but not far, and certainly a cut above most other schools that aren't Ivy.

I would also like to add the following top my list of "Ivy equivalents": Georgetown and Carnegie Mellon. By the way, excuse my ignorance, but what's Rockefeller?

As for the Harvard Extension controversy, I agree with you, if someone can get through, write the thesis, get it approved, and keep up the min 3.0 in grad school--or 2.5 in undergrad--who cares how they got there? If you learned from the best and performed well when measured by the identical standards to which traditional Harvard students are held, what difference should it make where you came from to get there?

One might argue that the Extension School degree should be held in higher esteem as most of the students hold down full-time jobs and must overcome more just to make it to class than the average Harvard student. Put it this way, were Kurt Warner's two MVP awards and his Super Bowl ring tainted because he took a rather non-traditional path--Arena League--to NFL fame? Of course not, he was recognized for doing the job when held to the same standards as those who had leaped straight from Football U to a high First Round choice to the NFL. Nobody cared, hey they celebrated it!

I know that what Bruce is saying is right, the Extension degrees or those obtained Summers or by other non-traditional means will never be held in the same esteem as those obtained via traditional paths. The reason for this is primarily because the keepers of the gates in academia live in a world where achievement is measured not by genuine accomplishment but by conforming to the standards of academia and jumping through the necessary hoops to obtain good grades or tenure. When I was a sales manager, I cared about two things: do you have what it takes, and are you willing to use it to move the product? Oh that academics were as pragmatic in their approach.

Imagine interviewing two candidates for a job, one is a gutty 30-something father of three who was the first in his family to go to college, worked the day shift at the factory and at night took courses from Harvard professors in the Extension School and graduated with a 3.5. Another candidate was a 23-year old traditional Harvard grad with the same GPA and the same basic degree--albeit without the "Liberal Arts--Extension" stigma--who's daddy went to Harvard and his daddy before him, who attended all the right prep schools from day one and was destined for the Crimson all his life and given every opportunity denied the first candidate.

It's a bizarre and frankly asinine world where the latter candidate gets the nod over the former--and yet, that's the world of academia.

 

The biggest barrier to a Harvard education is the COST.
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nosborne48:

You're right, but this is another benefit of the Extension School at Harvard: the cost is fractions of matriculating at Harvard College or one of the grad or professional schools. Perhaps that's another reason why the Extension degree is held in disrepute by some, there's little snob appeal in getting a Master's for $15,000 or $20,000--just seems so "state schoolish"--but the old money prep school snobs can be smugly satisfied that their degree(s) cost in excess of $100,000. Bully for them!

 

Is the University of Pennsylvania the sole Ivy League school that is public?

 

Is the University of Pennsylvania the sole Ivy League school that is public?
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nosborne:

Trivia: who founded Penn? (no fair googling it, I didn't, I actually heard the answer on good old Paul Harvey).

Also, I'm curious as to why you're pursuing the LLM. We've discussed the LLM program at UoL before, but I never asked you why you were pursuing.

Best to you!

 

Penn is a private school.
I believe that Cornell, while most of it's schools are private, has 1 or 2 that is public.

Tony

 

You are right. I was misled by the form of the name. Penn is private and older, apparently, than the nation.

And VERY expensive.

 

Founded by Ben Franklin.

 

Right now, I'm asking myself why I signed up with London! (grin) It's QUITE overwhelming.

I just wanted the chance to expand my theoretical base of knowlege in criminal law. Boy, is THAT ever happening.

However, tuition through Law Tutors Online commences in January. Judging by the materials they've sent me (and sent me and sent me) and their reputation, I'll be okay for the first half of the exam in August 2005.