Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Randell1234, Sep 29, 2003.
Do Ed.S. degrees have any value outside academia?
The Ed.S. (Education Specialist) is a rather odd stepchild within the realm of education degrees (B.Ed., M.Ed. & Ed.D.). The specialist is thought to be somewhere between a masters and doctorate (more coursework than the masters, but no dissertation required). Most poeple outside academia (and many within academia) have no idea what an Ed.S. is, so I would venture that its utility outside academia would, at best, be limited. Some universities award a C.A.S. (certificate of advanced studies) and C.A.G.S. (certificate of advanced graduate studies) that is somewhat akin to an Ed.S.
The university where I did my doctoral studies awards an Ed.S., but it is usually seen as a stepping stone to an Ed.D. or a way for those who do not complete their dissertation to have a more prestigious designation than "a.b.d." (all but dissertation).
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino
Most Ed S. degree holders I know get it so they can be administrators, counselors, or reading specialists, etc. Probably little value to corperrate america unless the company is in Education.
I don't think it was designed to be an intermediate degree for future PhD, Ed D. That would make too much sense. I think some talented doctorate learners are scared off because it is basically 60 SH and a Dissertation... or Bust. No consolation prize.
I completed the MS Ed at Cal State Hayward in Online Teaching and Learning. I looked very strongly at the EdS in Education Technology at Mizzou Columbia and decided against it. It's focused on the public school system, a place after alot of reflection, I decided I didn't want to be.
It seems to not only be unknown outside of academia, but would place you in a narrow niche in a field that seems to be cranking out degrees like flies. That's my impression, anyway. Everywhere you look, you see Ed Technology, Instruction Technology, etc... degrees poping up everywhere. In a time of training cutbacks and all, I didn't want to place myself in a narrow position.
Maybe I'm wrong, there are alot of people here with far more experience in this area, but that's my take.
Fitchburg State College in MA offers a C.A.G.S. in Interdisciplinary Studies, which is a departure from the usual C.A.G.S./Ed.S. fields of Education & Psychology.
I've seriously considered the Fitchburg State program, but it's mostly classroom-based, and Fitchburg is a bit of a haul for me.
In lieu of a C.A.G.S. or even an Ed.S., a second masters degree might be a better choice for many people. Although both are "higher" degrees than the MA, most people don't know that. For all practical purposes, someone with two masters degrees in two different areas would likely be considered as equivalent to someone with an MA/EdS or MA/CAGS in two different areas.
I think that the CAS/CAGS is not really a smart idea, since recipients of this certificate (degree?) will have to explain what it means to nearly everyone (the CAGS is far less known than the EdS, which is far less known than the MA, MS, MEd, PhD, EdD, etc.). The CAS/CAGS seems to be an eastern phenomenon (I am not aware of any midwestern or western university that offers it).
Now, I am not familiar with Fitchburg's program, but it might make sense if it requires significantly fewer units than a second masters (making it truly a certificate--not a degree). An EdS almost always requires the same number of units as a masters, so it is a degree, not a certificate.
For what it's worth.
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino
The Fitchburg C.A.G.S. requires 30 hours of graduate coursework (15 credits each in 2 seperate disciplines), plus either a thesis or internship/paper for 6 more credits for 36 total.
The main reason I was considering it is that Massachusetts state schools offer tuition waivers to war veterans, which I am. My M.A. from UMass-Lowell cost me only the price of textbooks.
Fascinating...it seems a shame that they require the equivalent work of a degree, yet only award a certificate. At least the EdS is a degree (and typically does not require a thesis). Most college certificate programs are 12-24 units in length.
Since you are in the east, the C.A.G.S. may be known and recognized. I'll bet that I could not find one person in 500 here in the west that would know what a C.A.G.S. was.
The tuition waver sounds like a wonderful program. Anyone who volunteers to risk his (or her) life to protect my freedom and country deserves that and more. However, if it were me, I would opt for a second masters.
Best of luck,
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino
I have an Ed.S.
I have an Ed.S. in instructional technology... It was a brand new online program and it pushed me, that is for sure. I am very very pleased I did this. Now, I must admit I have to explain it... even people with degrees from education schools have rarely heard of it. But I also have an MA and MBA. I teach at a community college and a doctorate, 5 to 8 years of who knows what, would have paid me $1900 more a year... yeah, that's a smart move. For me, it worked... frankly, I think we have way too many people chasing Ph.D's/Ed.D.'s... always, why do you need THAT???
Tony....a lot of my fellow veterans that I have met at the local V.F.W. or American Legion posts frequently complain about the lack of gratitude expressed by the general public for their military service.
I'd like to tell you, sincerely, that your comments mean a lot to me, and I will share them with my fellow veterans.
As far as my future educational goals, I'm still very undecided. I'm leaning towards a Ph.D., but I'm still "on the fence".
It can, it really depends on what area. I know many licensed counselors that hold EdS (and it isn't in school counseling and they don't have a background in school counseling). I also know several licensed psychological associates that holds an EdS.
The EdS is not a degree that is a stepping stone to an EdD (or other doctorate). In fact, many universities will not accept coursework completed from an EdS program. The EdS is a terminal degree. Often administrators and school psychologists and counselors complete an EdS, as well as sometimes individuals who major in Curriculum and Instruction or Instructional Design. Many classroom teachers who goes on above a masters will complete a Rank 1 degree in stead of EdS.
If you plan on staying within education (teach in public education), completing a Rank 1, CAGS, or second masters won't matter. Usually they complete further education for different certifications and for pay increase. If you want to adventure outside of public education, an EdS is a pretty good route.
Wow. An 11-year-old thread.
The EdS isn't a "degree." It doesn't sit on a tier with other degrees. There aren't comparable "specialist"-level designations in other academic disciplines. That's why it lacks recognition where degrees are generally considered (like on resumes). It is largely unknown outside the K-12 education profession. I'm not slighting it or those who accomplish it; I'm just putting it into perspective.
Since the necromancers have revitalized this thread, I'll throw in some thoughts. I would argue that the EdS is, in fact, a degree. Why? Because the schools that offer it tend to refer to it as such. I looked into getting an EdS in School Administration back in the day when I was teaching K-12, and I had started a program through the University of South Dakota. Fortunately, my principal pointed me in a different direction, and I earned a second masters which put me where I am now.
I had also considered the MA in Instructional Technology from Virginia Tech at one point. Their program is 30 credits. If you go in with only an undergraduate degree, you get an MA. If you go in with a graduate degree, you'll complete the same coursework, but be awarded an EdS. In that regards, it would appear that the EdS and MA were basically identical. However, if we look at another school, like Walden University where I earned my MS, they have EdS degrees that contain the same coursework as the EdD minus the dissertation.
As many of you pointed out over a decade ago, it seems like the EdS is a bizarre creation. While my colleagues in education would've known what it was, I don't think the average go would. Similarly, I think we might say the same of an EdD. Degree recognition is actually one of the reasons I opted to switch to the PhD program at Cumberlands rather than staying with the EdD.
An number of universities offer the EdS as part of the EdD program. I only had to take one extra class that was not part of the classes I needed for the EdD program, so why not? Liberty sent me a big, beautiful diploma that certainly makes it look official. Looks nice on my diploma wall above my desk.
Is it a real degree? I dunno. I think it is mainly used to move K-12 teachers over to the final, highest column in the pay scale.
In engineering there is the "Engineer" degree - higher than a masters degree but one that is unknown about even by many engineers.
In the United States, the degree of engineer or engineer's degree is the least commonly obtained advanced degree in engineering. It is usually preceded by a master's degree and is not a prerequisite to a doctoral degree, usually serving instead as a terminal degree. The availability of degrees and the specific requirements differ considerably between institutions and between specialties within an institution. In the past, it was not uncommon for a would-be engineer to earn an engineer's degree as their first and only college degree. But since World War II this has fallen out of favor, and it becomes continually more difficult to find a school that offers this option. Regulation and licensure in engineering in the U.S. usually requires an Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) engineering program accreditation, which is granted only to bachelor's degrees and, rarely, master's degrees.
For graduate students in engineering, the two-year master's degree is most commonly followed by a traditional research doctorate (Ph.D.). However, the engineer's degree provides an alternative to the doctorate for professional engineers rather than academicians. Some graduate programs, such as those offered at Stanford, Caltech and the Naval Postgraduate School, require a thesis for the engineer's degree but the research requirements are generally less than those of Ph.D. candidates and more comparable to those of master of science students. Other universities, such as Santa Clara University, do not have a specific research requirement. For this reason, some consider an engineer's degree to be on a level between a master's degree and a doctorate.
A degree with some form of the word engineer or engineering in the title is not necessarily an engineer's degree. Particularly, a "Master of Engineering" (M.Eng.) or "Engineering Doctorate" (Eng. D) degree is not an Engineer's degree, nor is any other bachelor's, master's, or doctoral degree. Rather, the engineer's degree is in a category of its own. For example, a student with a B.S. and M.S. in electrical engineering might next earn the degree Electrical Engineer. The person would then have a B.S. in E.E., a M.S. in E.E., and an E.E. degree. The former two are degrees in engineering, and only the latter degree is actually an engineer's degree.
Columbia University offers the professional degree in engineering disciplines.
In addition to the Ed.S, there are the SSP (specialist of school psychology) and Psy.S (specialist of psychology - usually in school psychology). The U.S. Department of Education does have a category for intermediate graduate qualifications. Within that category, there are sub-categories for certificates (C.A.G.S.), diplomas (P.E. - professional engineer), and degrees (Psy.D). An Ed.S or Sp.Ed is considered to be a degree that is on par with a Psy.D or D.Min.
Structure of U.S. Education
Ugh, this again? The universities that award it call it a degree, and that's good enough for me.
In my opinion, the Ed.S. should have been the standard credential for K-12 principals and superintendents, rather than the Ph.D. or Ed.D. If is wasn't for Harvard's silly rule that only the College of Arts & Sciences could award the Ph.D., we would likely not have the Ed.D. and D.B.A. degrees, which are confusing to many and are most often redundant to the Ph.D.
Separate names with a comma.