DL Forum or RA Forum?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Ee, May 26, 2002.

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  1. Ee

    Ee New Member

    After following the discussion on this board, I can't help but surmised that it is not focused on DL issues at all. Why not rename this board as RA DL Discussion Forum?

    From what I sensed, it is the 'ego' factor that hinges on RA graduates who worked so damned hard in getting their degrees. It is not pleasant to find that what they got is on par with non-accredited schools. Likewise, graduates of traditional brick and mortar schools will in some ways find their degrees better than those who obtained them through DL. And, those DL graduates would also like to show their 'superiority' over the unaccredited graduates.

    When a RA school were to give credit by attendance, RA guys will say it is of RA quality. When this happens to an unaccredited school...that's inferior and substandard ! Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder and one man's meat is another man's poision !

    When CCU graduates holding high posts or academic teaching positions, there are people who said that CCU degrees are not needed there and then for those positions. Some posters even went on to say that it is embrassing or a time bomb to list CCU degrees. Whatever it is, I have seen quite a number of CCU in prominent positions but why are they not embrassed yet? Ha, perhaps.... some of these posters may try or waiting to embrass them;)

    There are laws in every state and country. There is no right or wrong in every situation. Of course fraud is not permitted by all standards. Who defines standard? Take a look at the 6 RA agencies. Are all of their standards being equal or the same? Only in countries where there is only one standard of accredition or recognition then we can be assured of the a broad application of such standard.

    It is fraudent to buy a degree and to list the courses in the transcript. By all standards, it is not to be accepted.

    Yes, CA state approved standard may not be great but this does not mean there is an'oversight' on their part. If bias posters find that CA approved schools like CCU, Cal Pacific... are mills, then they are implying that CA is a mill approver.

    A degree is only a door opener unless we are talking about professional occupations like medical doctors or engineers. If jobs are only selected based on degree status, then why are RA graduates needed to be selected from the pool of RA applicants? Whatever it is, the candidate itself is of greater importance over a piece of paper.

    By exercising biasness because someone holds an unaccredited degree is not rational.

    Calling CA apporved schools mills is already a manifestation of no regard for state regulations. So what is the use of all these years of RA education if the graduates have no regard for state regulations? My advice is why not walk to the CA office and tell them that they are mill approver.

    I still think that RA is a good choice over state approved degrees due to its acceptability, but I will not be bias over the holders of state approved degrees.

    Can't we be a little bit more objective over the discussion of DL?
     
  2. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Originally posted by Ee
    After following the discussion on this board, I can't help but surmised that it is not focused on DL issues at all. Why not rename this board as RA DL Discussion Forum?

    Because it's *not* simply a discussion of RA degrees, as should be obvious if you read the posts here.


    From what I sensed, it is the 'ego' factor that hinges on RA graduates who worked so damned hard in getting their degrees. It is not pleasant to find that what they got is on par with non-accredited schools.


    Now let me get this straight. On the one hand, you're saying that people who hold RA degrees have ego because they worked really hard for their degrees, and on the other hand, you're saying that people with unaccredited degrees which, in your (unsupported) opinion are "on par" with RA degrees. If the learning is really "on par" (which it isn't), then how could the holder of an unaccredited degree do any less work?


    Likewise, graduates of traditional brick and mortar schools will in some ways find their degrees better than those who obtained them through DL.


    Supporting citations, please.

    Additionally, what about schools such as Antioch, Skidmore, Regis, Regent, Eastern Oregon, Bellvue, Ohio U-Athens, Brigham Young, and the hundreds of others who have both B&M and DL programs? Are you implying that the DL programs at these schools (usually taught using the exact same materials as their B&M counterparts) are inferior to the B&M
    courses?

    If so, please provide appropriate citations supporting your contention.


    And, those DL graduates would also like to show their 'superiority' over the unaccredited graduates.


    Well, I think it's more likely that the employers and schools are the ones who find those with accredited degrees to be superior, since they are the ones doing the hiring or acceptance to grad programs. If you have data that says otherwise, please cite.


    When a, RA school were to give credit by attendance, RA guys will say it is of RA quality. When this happens to an unaccredited school...that's inferior and substandard


    Uh, no. When an RA school offers a program, the quality assurance behind that program is provided by the peer review process that accreditation oversight provides, as well as the general oversight of the school by the accrediting body itself. When an unaccredited school offers a program, there is nothing whatsoever to provide quality assurance, other than an internal process to the school which, by the nature of it, can't be objective.


    When CCU graduates holding high posts or academic teaching positions, there are people who said that CCU degrees are not needed there and then for those positions.


    If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Otherwise, past research into this specific issue makes it quite clear that folks with Cal Coast degrees hold their teaching positions in spite of their Cal Coast degree, not because of it.

    [/b]
    Some posters even went on to say that it is embrassing or a time bomb to list CCU degrees.
    [/b]

    Well.... not yet, but the slew of CCU apologists that have been showing up recently are doing an excellent job of reinforcing the arguments against CCU, which is typical of what happens when people show up trying to defend unaccredited schools. The millspeak is always the same, featuring flawed logic, cooked statistics, unsupported conjecture, and reasoning that suddenly, without warning, shifts mid-discussion when it is clear that the old reasoning can no longer be supported.


    Whatever it is, I have seen quite a number of CCU in prominent positions but why are they not embrassed yet? Ha, perhaps.... some of these posters may try or waiting to embrass them;)


    More likely, it's because they have sound credentials in addition to their CCU credentials.


    There are laws in every state and country. There is no right or wrong in every situation.


    Now *there* is a profound statement.


    Of course fraud is not permitted by all standards.


    The implication being that it's permitted by *some* standards? Citations, please.


    Who defines standard? Take a look at the 6 RA agencies. Are all of their standards being equal or the same?


    They're pretty darn close. That's why there is very strong intertransferability of credits and degrees between RA schools, even when it's a different regional providing the accreditation.

    [/b]
    Only in countries where there is only one standard of accredition or recognition then we can be assured of the a broad application of such standard. [/b]

    In general the standards among the 6 regionals are as consistent between them as they are within a single accreditor. In other words, enough to provide a baseline of quality assurance. No such baseline is available to schools that don't have some sort of peer-reviewed, high quality external validation. There's simply no way around that.


    It is fraudent to buy a degree and to list the courses in the transcript. By all standards, it is not to be accepted.


    Another profound statement.


    Yes, CA state approved standard may not be great but this does not mean there is an'oversight' on their part. If bias posters find that CA approved schools like CCU, Cal Pacific... are mills, then they are implying that CA is a mill approver.


    Actually, no one is saying that CA approves mills. I think most are instead saying that the standards as written might be OK, but the enforcement of those standards is nearly nonexistent. And given the California initiative that permits individuals or companies to sue California employees for acts they perform in the course of their employment, the employees are reluctant to take actions against mills, lest they be sued. That's why at least some of the worst operations continue to operate... because their attorneys have made it clear that they *will* sue if action is taken.


    A degree is only a door opener unless we are talking about professional occupations like medical doctors or engineers.


    Since this assertion challenges the common experience and belief of most, please provide supporting data.

    [/b]
    If jobs are only selected based on degree status, then why are RA graduates needed to be selected from the pool of RA applicants? Whatever it is, the candidate itself is of greater importance over a piece of paper.
    [/b]

    Of *course* the candidate is more important than the specific location of the degree. But graduation from an RA school does imply that the candidate has a certain baseline of critical thinking skill and deductive reasoning ability that most employers need. My own experience as an HR consultant and hiring manager is that graduates of vocational programs and unaccredited schools often lack those skills and abilities. Of course there are exceptions, but that is the norm.


    By exercising biasness because someone holds an unaccredited degree is not rational.


    Actually, it's quite sound and rational, and is supported by a variety of reasonable and sensible bases, not to mention the professional experience of thousands of HR professionals.



    Calling CA apporved schools mills is already a manifestation of no regard for state regulations.


    And not many here would refer to a CA -approved school as a mill. There are certainly some CA schools with millish behavior, but not all of them are terrible.


    So what is the use of all these years of RA education if the graduates have no regard for state regulations? My advice is why not walk to the CA office and tell them that they are mill approver.


    Actually, the officials in the California office that handles such things are quite aware of the problem, and quite frustrated by the lack of funding and the risk of legal action that faces them if they try to enforce the law. Look at the expense and difficulty associated with shutting down Columbia Pacific as just one example, and multiply that times all of the awful schools in California. There just isn't enough money to fund proper oversight of all the CA -approved schools. This doesn't mean that the schools are good schools, just that they're able to exist due to lax enforcement.


    I still think that RA is a good choice over state approved degrees due to its acceptability,


    In that case, you're essentially supporting the entire argument in favor of RA schools... that they have much greater acceptance, and therefore, are a much better option.


    Can't we be a little bit more objective over the discussion of DL? [/B]

    I think that's advice you could afford to take yourself.

    If you can provide citations and/or other data to support the numerous assertions you've made above, then people will examine them and comment. Otherwise, your statements are just conjecture, and are not objective statements of fact.
     
  3. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Ee I think you want that OTHER web site degreeMILLinfo.com. :D Seriously I think you are way off base. I have nothing against a legitimate unaccredited institution or degree such as the ones mentioned by Bill. It is clear that CCU and CPU are not in that group. They are either degree mills or near degree mills. Take home multiple choice exams for Masters and Doctorates? Give me a break. So clearly this has nothing to do with ego or RA vs. other legitimate programs. As to your other assertions they are equally weak. Ca approved means little if it passes the likes of CCU. A person who would choose an unaccredited degree is definately a liability and a poor choice for an employment position, etc, etc.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Welcome Ee!

    As you are new (??) it may be helpful for you to review the board before making a statement like that because it is inaccurate. This board discusses DL at length and any number of accredited (RA, TRACS, DETC), equivalent of accredited (foreign) or legit unaccredited programs (BJU, PCC). Of course people are going to recommend RA first all things being equal because of utility.

    Does it surprise you that people might be critical of multiple choice exams at the doctorate level and no dissertation or doctoral project doctorates. It should not be a surprise.

    Where else can people be discussing the Wallongong U & the University of Zululand.

    North
     
  5. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Although most posters favor RA and GAAP degrees over non-accredited degrees, posters with divergent views about accreditation also post hear. There are also posters with moderate views about non-accredited degrees especially those that involve reasonable amount of work. You will also bear in mind that in a forum like this, some people will not always agree with what you have to say. Once you hang out here for a while, you will notice that Dr. Bear, Tom Head, David Yamada, and a few others espouse moderate views when discussing some non-accredited schools that award degrees based on real work. That is, some posters don't think that all schools that are not GAAP are degree mills. As for me, it is GAAP or nothing, but that's one man's opinion.
     
  6. wfready

    wfready New Member

    My own experience as an HR consultant and hiring manager is that graduates of vocational programs and unaccredited schools often lack those skills and abilities. Of course there are exceptions, but that is the norm.

    Chip,

    Exactly, what do you consider a vocational degree? If you meant a certificate of achievement earned from taking a series of technical courses that relate to a specific vocation without any credit in general education? If so, then I would agree with you. However, if you were refering to terminal undergrad degrees such as some AS's, most AAS's, and perhaps BAS degrees then I feel that's a little harsh leveling their abilities to a graduate of an unaccredited degree.

    Ee,

    Some tend to stand by RA degrees a little stronger than others on this board. Now as for unaccredited degrees, take a look at monster.com. If you look at positions requiring a 4 year degree, more often then not they will make it known in the description that the applicant needs an ACCREDITED degree to qualify. Now, as for DETC and other NA degrees, I have not seen anyone specifically request an RA degree (only time I can recall seeing this was the FBI and even they have included NA degrees now). Granted, I am sure there are companies that prefer RA degrees over others (I think its just the fact that others do not know the difference between the two types of accreditation). One preference I have NOT seen was NA or unaccredited degrees over RA ones.

    So, I feel more posters here would suggest RA over NA or an unaccredited program just because of the fact that it is more accepted and you will probably have much less trouble getting into a grad program or get yourself an interview for a job you want. Doesn't always mean that the non-RA programs are not as good. It Just means that you will have an easier time using it.

    Best Regards,

    Bill
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2002
  7. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    Re: Re: DL Forum or RA Forum?

     
  8. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    So, I feel more posters here would suggest RA over NA or an unaccredited program just because of the fact that it is more accepted and you will probably have much less trouble getting into a grad program or get yourself an interview for a job you want. Doesn't always mean that the non-RA programs are not as good. It Just means that you will have an easier time using it.

    Best Regards,

    Bill [/B][/QUOTE]

    Bill,

    That is the best and most honest thing I have heard here yet.

    Michael
     
  9. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Bill,

    That is the best and most honest thing I have heard here yet.

    Michael [/B][/QUOTE]

    Actually I believe this to be an incorrect statement. Most here would suggest an RA degree if at all possible and a DETC degree as a last resort. It is not that an unaccredited degree couldn't be as good just that vast majority(almost all?) are not. CCU has been suggested as one of the better unaccredited degrees and now we learn it is barely high school level work much less college level work. There is a reason that the vast majority of academic institutions of this country require RA and that is that it at least sets a minimum standard. As Bill Dayson has pointed out there are some notable exceptions but they are very specialized institutions that few are likely to be considering.
     
  10. Broderick

    Broderick New Member

    CCU has been suggested as one of the better unaccredited degrees and now we learn it is barely high school level work much less college level work.
    [/B][/QUOTE]


    Dave,

    What data do you have to make this statement? Have you seen the curricula? What is "barely high school level"? Or is this just your opinion?

    Michael
     
  11. Tom Head

    Tom Head New Member

    A few years ago, when I and my buddies were sitting outdoors somewhere at some sort of coffee shop or outdoor bookstore table or somewhere else where people sit outside without loitering, a truck pulled up and a wide-grinning middle-aged man in a baseball cap, tucked-in T-shirt, tennis shorts and sneakers opened up the back and you could smell the barbecue for three blocks, and he started selling unlabeled hot tinfoil-wrapped barbecued goodies to anyone standing around looking hungry. A few folks standing around, and probably one or two of my friends, picked some up and took it home. I didn't buy any, because I had no idea where the meat came from. I'm still glad I didn't. But to the best of my knowledge, nobody who bought the stuff got food poisoning.



    Cheers,
     
  12. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    It is not opinion. It is based on four students in their BA and MBA studies at CCU that state the degree consisits of reading text books and open book take-home multiple choice test with no provision to eliminate cheating. There also are apparently no lectures, no class discussions, no projects and not even one short paper of any kind. No wonder CCU was never accredited. This kind of program would be laughed at most any high school much less lower quality college.
     
  13. MacWithey

    MacWithey New Member

    I have read a number of posts which indicate that the
    CCU *MBA* coursework consists of multiple choice questions.
    When I was in the program (back in 1996), each course
    consisted of multiple choice questions *and* essays requiring
    the equivalent of 5 or 6 typewritten pages. The thesis
    was mandatory when I enrolled, but became optional soon afterward.
    I recently contacted the school to ask if the essay requirements
    were eliminated, and I was *told* that *some* of the graduate
    level business courses require essays. (There is also a series
    of essays which must be answered at the end of the DBA
    program). All (or virtually all) of the undergraduate business coursework is of the short answer variety.
    While CCU is not Princeton-- or even SD State-- my
    learning experience was decent (and only decent), but I would
    certainly advise anyone to consider programs which are at
    least RA (or equivalent). For me, the degree has proven to be of limited utility.

    DM
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2002
  14. Eli

    Eli New Member

    On the other hand my MBA experience with CCU was less than wonderful for the following reasons:

    1) No interaction with faculty even when I tried to talk to one. Felt isolated with a textbook and bunch of questions to answer.
    2) Exams are not challenging (easy and straight forward multiple Choice questions)
    3) The MNC I work for refused to pay the tuition because it is not RA not to mention that they perceived my move "going the easy way" as stated by one of the executives I work with.
    4) CCU degree (or any state approved) is not recognized at my company and therefore will not help me with future promotions. On the contrary, it became a liability.
    5) No RA school will accept credits transfer from CCU. (e.g. Both Touro and Capella universities refused to accept the three courses I took at CCU, I had to start from scratch).
    6) The idea of passing an MBA with Multiple Choice questions seemed unreal to me. I felt that there is more to an MBA then this. Why pay the tuition (appox. $3000) when I can read the textbooks on my own. Faculty interaction is nonexistent anyway.
    7) Having my professional life with a large family and obligations, DL was the only route to take. DL is already in its infancy stage and stereotyped by some employers and academics as inferior to its traditional counterpart. Considering this fact, the least one can do is to stick with a RA DL school.

    All of the above were enough reasons to convince me that the best way to go is Regionally Accredited (GAAP). I guess I got what I paid for with CCU...

    Eli
    Ph.D. candidate, Touro University International
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2002
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    While the debate rages on and on regarding accreditation (and lack thereof) around here, it doesn't "out there." This is such a niche. I've worked in training and HR in both the public and private sectors for almost 25 years, and I've never heard any sort of debate about the merits of accreditation--or lack thereof. Never.

    Unaccredited schools like SCUPS, fake schools like Lacrosse, diploma mills like Columbia State; no one's talking about this stuff. Whenever I bring it up around "civilians,' they're invariably surprised to find that these things even exist. Perhaps that's why they (the non-accredited schools and other school-like operations) can.

    The news servers at Penn State and--I believe--Nova Southeastern almost never talk about this stuff. They focus on delivering quality degree programs via distance learning methods. Legitimacy and accreditation is assumed, and non-accredited schools aren't even part of the debate. They're a tiny blip on the radar that no one cares about.

    Now, I'm the first one to focus on the product (the degree) instead of the process. But this whole debate about accreditation is ignored and almost unheard outside the membership of this little backwater. And its dumb to make the same arguments over and over again to the same well-informed colleagues and adversaries. The field does not advance because of it.

    This isn't an "RA" or "DL" board. It is a place where a few people come in and speak lies and exaggerations about the utility of a few fringe schools' degrees, while a bunch of others beat them into submission. Where's the gain in that?:confused:
     
  16. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    You are 100% correct. However if the apologist just posted their rationalizations at least a few people would be conned into programs like CCU that have no utility or value. It is better that the apologist get hit then the others.
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    As one of the "hitters," I agree. And as probably the biggest "hittee" (re: MIGS), I have to agree as well. But it's about all we talk about anymore.
     
  18. Frangop

    Frangop New Member

    Well said Ee.

    CFr
     
  19. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    My 2¢ . . .

    I am more than happy to acknowledge that there is a favoritism among degreeinfo.com members toward RA schools.

    After all, people who graduate from RA schools are smarter than those who earn unaccredited degrees. They are also better looking, sexier, wealthier, and have their shit more together than unaccredited grads. We whine and moan less, are more professional in our demeanor, and more highly successful than our unaccredited counterparts.

    Face it, the only reason we allow graduates of unaccredited programs here at all is to laugh at them. And for psychology practice - to analyze their inferiority complexes (which are, of course, justified).

    Yes. We few, we proud . . . We RA programs graduates are just better in every way.

    (Wait a second . . . I better put a smiley here so people don't take me so seriously.) :D
     
  20. Suse

    Suse New Member

    My 2.5 cents (value added to allow for inflation)

    I appreciate this discussion and others like it, because as Rich said, in the rest of the world accreditation and legitimacy are assumed.

    Certainly it's easy to spot a diploma mill when they place in-your-face ads about buying a degree for $199, but it doesn't occur to many people (including me when I started researching DL) that there were schools out there that were not RA and yet awarded the same types of degrees, in some of the same fields of study.
    Now it's the first thing I look for in a program and, all other things being equal, would be the deciding factor for me.

    Yes, the typical poster on this board is experienced enough to know the difference and will do appropriate research and consideration before entering a program, but for all the newbies who lurk, read, and learn, I just wanted to let you all know this discussion does provide a valuable service, however unrewarding it may be to have it again, and again, and again...

    and Levicoff? ROTFL at your post!

    Melissa
     

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