Did Russians successfully manipulate or change American votes?

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by me again, Jan 5, 2017.


Did Russians successfully manipulate or change American votes?

Poll closed Feb 4, 2017.
  1. Russians hacked into American election-machines and illegally altered votes.

    0 vote(s)
  2. Russians hacked the DNC & exposed immorality or criminality, causing citizens to change their votes

  3. Russians DID psychologically make citizens change their votes with cyberwarfare & media manipulation

  4. Russians did NOT psychologically make citizens change their votes with cyberwarfare & manipulation

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I do not know who Tiny Tim is or what it even means; however, you may want to look up "Finlandization". Is Finland a Western country?
  2. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

  3. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Sorry for the obscure reference.

    I recall the people of Finnair as being Western enough.
  4. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    "Tiny Tim" was originally the name of Bob Cratchit's handicapped son in Dickens' "A Christmas Carol."

    A singer, Herbert Khaury, (1932-1996) who was famous for Andy Warhol's proverbial 15 minutes in the 60's, worked under the stage-name "Tiny Tim." In 1968, he re-popularized a 1920's hit, "Tiptoe through the Tulips" - hence Decimon's reference. Whole story here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Tim_(musician)

    Don't worry, Stanislav - you have to be old to remember this stuff. Helps if you play the ukulele. :smile:

    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2017
  5. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Nah, the ukulele might give him an urge to fire Julius La Rosa.
  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    ...and yet, "Finlandization", as in trying to pander to the Russian bear so he won't create problems for a much smaller neighbor. Kind of what Justin just did with Trump.

    I got to ask: what would it take for you to consider a nation part of "the West"? I can't help but feel a hint of condescension. And I do hail from a country that is "not quite there" as well (in fact, Montenegro came much farther by most metrics). What do we have to do to prove ourselves?
  7. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm not on a first name basis with any national leaders so I haven't your insight.

    I don't reason through emotion so a direct reply will be difficult.

    To begin with, I don't expect people to prove themselves to me. I said the Finnair folk seemed Western enough because they acted in the casual fashion of a people feeling free. As opposed to in the guarded fashion of people reared in communist states.
  8. TomE

    TomE New Member

    Ally of the West and Western ally are two different things. I don't consider Montenegro to be very Western in culture or customs at all. You should check it out for yourself; Budva should be getting going in the next 3 or 4 months.
  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Interesting. To me "The West" is the entire Western Hemisphere, all of Europe, Israel, Georgia, and Armenia. Even Russia is Western to me in terms of which overarching civilization to which it belongs historically and culturally.
  10. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Oh. In culture or customs. At all. Are they at least "a little" Western? What about Bulgaria? Poland? the Baltics? Czech Republic? Romania? Greece? Portugal? Hungary? What is your criteria - funny letters? Eastern Orthodox Christianity as opposed to Roman Catholicism (in which case, do Croatians qualify)?
  11. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Well you see, apparently there is a set of "culture" and "customs" you need to adhere to. A millennium of Christianity (more than that in case of Georgia and Armenia) would not cut it. Maybe if the staff at Mediterranean resort acted more like Finnair flight attendants they'd be considered "Western".

    On Russia: it is very much up to them whether they are "Western" or not. They certainly have a cultural heritage to claim Western-ness if they wish (although not nearly as amazing as they make it out). However, currently they try to build this weird third-way alternative identity as an alternative to the West. It is deeply culturally conservative alternative that attracts freaks from the opposite fringes of Western politics and frankly sounds very much like Islamism, despite claiming to be its sworn enemy. I hope this won't survive the Putin regime principals (although I don't really care per se, as long as they'll be out of Ukraine - otherwise the more self-destructive their actions, the better).
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Didn't hurt his career a bit. Fired by Arthur Godfrey (on live TV!) Oct. 19th 1953. Died at 86 - May 12, 2016. You did great, Julius. You sang, people felt good. Great job. :smile:

    OK, back to work. Save the Western World, guys. That's an order!

  13. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    I try but my shotgun just can't reach those black helicopters.
  14. TomE

    TomE New Member

    Some of those, for sure. Others...not nearly as much, although I'm not basing my classifications off of religion or Cyrillic.

    You keep asking for answers to these questions, yet I'm still waiting for my day pass to Otrada (I'll even settle for NEMO); where is it??!!
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I'd need to know what "Otrada" is, and why would I be in position to distribute passes to it. It is not something high profile in Toronto hromada or it'd at least ring the bell. Google is no help, as "otrada" is a common Russian word (that could plausibly show up in some Ukrainian dialects, I suppose). The first page results refer to a hotel in Odessa... hmmm...

    I'm still baffled by this idea of a hierarchy scale of "Westernness" and want better explanation. Also, I'm puzzled what nation using Cyrillic you'd consider "the West" if Montenegro is out. Obvious candidate is Bulgaria... but then I can't see why would you make this distinction. They are Southern Slavic first cousins; if anything Montenegro has more Italian influence while Bulgaria - more Turkic. It can't be the EU membership, as everyone I mentioned in that earlier post is an EU member state. You could mean Ukraine, I suppose, but that'd just be naked pandering.

    Clearly, I'm puzzled how could this beauty standard be constructed other than based on ethnic prejudice.
  16. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    So am I. As far as I can tell, no one but you thinks in those terms.
  17. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I'm still puzzled about how to earn the privilege of being "Western". OK, at least between Bulgaria and Poland: is either or both Western?
  18. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I forgot to ask: do you think saying "hierarchy" is so different from "classifications", as TomE said? Why?
  19. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    Earn from whom? Is there a Ministry of Privilege Giving?
  20. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    I guess that historically, there was the Greek speaking Hellenistic east of the Roman Empire, and the Latin speaking western half. In medieval times, the Byzantines dominated the east as Orthodox Christian culture developed there. The west retained Latin vernaculars and the Roman Catholic Church deeply influenced culture. By the high medieval period, the Latin west was developing a unique and distinctive culture of its own while the Byzantine Orthodox culture was spreading northwards into Russia and blossoming there. So that's one east/west dichotomy.

    On the larger scale of the entire Eurasian continent, there is a distinction between the rather diverse civilization family that arose in Europe and the very different Confucian/Buddhist civilization family that arose far to the east in China and Japan. That's a second east/west dichotomy.

    And just recently, during many of our living memories, the Cold War split Europe into a free west and a communist east, yet a third east/west dichotomy.

    So perhaps the most western of the west would be the cultures descended from the Latin west of medieval times that were part of the western alliance in the Cold War. A second tier of the west might include places like Poland, the Czech republic and Hungary that are descended from the Catholic west but found themselves part of the Warsaw pact. And a third tier would include Russia and the Balkans, places that the medievals would still have included in what they called "Christendom" and are definitely part of 'European civilization' in the larger Eurasian sense.

    That still leaves places like the US, Canada and Australia. These began as colonies of Britain (and France in Quebec) and retain much of the cultural heritage of the old countries. In a similar way, the Russians spread across northern Eurasia in the 17th century and part of the Russian sphere can be found today north of Turkestan, Mongolia and on the northwestern Pacific coast. Latin America would have to be included in Western civilization in the big sense as well.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2017

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