Detc Phd??

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by dlady, Jan 12, 2005.

  1. dlady

    dlady New Member

    My memory is that one of the topics at the recent DETC meeting was going to be the idea of DETC accredited PHD's, and possibly a pilot program schedule. Has there been any news released on this? Did I miss it in another thread?

  2. Kirkland

    Kirkland New Member

    The last communication I got from DETC was that they had posted an educational industry inquiry regarding the approval of PhDs in which they got a lot of feedback, some negative, based on their experience with such things. As a result, DETC was considering the possibility of being granted the authority to recognize professional/practice oriented doctorates, e.g. DBAs, EdDs etc. as an alternative. This would provide a step in the continuum above their current charter and could be supported by the experience of some of the schools they already accredit.
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina New Member

    This is a link to the current DETC proposal for the recognition of doctoral programs. This proposal has not yet been approved by the U.S. Dept. of Education or the Council for Higher Education Administration.

    There are a few interesting items in here, such as the requirement for doctoral programs to have a dissertation and that:

    --All teaching faculty involved with doctoral students must have doctoral/terminal degrees from other appropriately accredited institutions.

    --The dissertation committee must have at least three members, and must include at least two members who earned their doctorates from appropriately accredited institutions other than the awarding institution.

    --At least one member of the dissertation committee must be a member of the awarding institution’s faculty.
  4. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina New Member

    Re: Re: Detc Phd??

    Given the fact that the requirements for Ed.D. degrees at most institutions are identical to those for Ph.D. degrees in education, this may be difficult. I cannot speak to DBAs.

    The California State University system tried to get approval to offer doctorates and met the same kind of resistance from the University of California system. Both the CSU and DETC are victims of higher education turf wars.

    Rather than trying to compete with the regionals as an easier and less-recognized alternative, the DETC would do well to concentrate on providing some kind of value-added benefit for distance learning programs that regional accreditation cannot provide.

    Tony Pina
    Northeastern Illinois University
  5. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    I for one, would like to see a practioner/application DBA, DM etc... instead of the PhD. Mostly because I believe that a DETC PhD would really have a tough time keeping with the spirit of research and publication in many fields. Although there may be exceptions. I think the DBA, DM, etc... does not carry the research flavor that the traditional PhD is known to encompass. While I understand that DBAs do a dissertation it is the expectation beyond that point for continued scholarly effort that I believe distinguishes the true research degree beyond its application counterpart. I also believe that the DETC schools participating in this effort should examine what the true intent of the terminal degree focus will be for their student.

    Thanks for the post Rod.

  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    In its undated newsletter, Vol. 25, Number 3, California College for Health Sciences (DETC) states they will soon have doctoral degree programs.

    On a separate matter, I emailed CCHS asking them if they planned to seek RA. Here is the response:

  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Active Member

    This is absurd. It has been clearly demonstrated elsewhere on this board--despite the rantings of some lunatic who's actually earned a Ph.D. from an accredited school--that it is simply not necessary to require a dissertation! Isn't that obvious?:rolleyes:

    (NB: For those hoping someday that CCU will be permitted by DETC to award doctorates, the above requirement might alter some plans--and some thinking.)
  8. Kirkland

    Kirkland New Member

    This requirement, if passed, is not currently followed by every accredited school that offers doctorates (Case Western, for example, or even Union) including (in the case of business schools) AACSB members (although very close to 100%).

    I remember presenting a paper to the forum last year that was written by the Pres. of Univ. of Maryland who described the current trending regarding dissertations. There is more diversification now, and IIRC approx. 20-25% doctorate granting schools offer alternatives to the traditional dissertation.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Active Member

    Alternatives, yes. But not going without one, which is what CCU does.

    "Alternatives" means projects similar in scope, design, and contribution to knowledge, but don't necessarily act like a dissertation. At Union, for example, learners are free to pursue other kinds of doctoral projects. But those projects still much represent doctoral-level research, original contribution(s) to the field, and that the candidate possesses a grasp on the scope and depth of his/her field of study. For example, an art student might want to submit a portfolio of his/her art. But it doesn't stop there. The learner will also have to do a literature review (and review of other salient aspects of the field), document the development of his/her art, and likely draw comparisons/contrasts to others in the field (and draw conclusions based upon it).

    "Alternatives" allow for practical projects, not just experiments. But original, substantive contributions to the field of knowledge are a fundamental aspect of the deal. The CCU DBA program doesn't require this.

    What "alternatives" doesn't mean is to answer some questions on a comprehensive exam, even if those answers require dozens and dozens of pages.

    Look, I've read CCU's materials for many years. I know how the end-of-course exam is constructed and presented. It isn't a dissertation, and it isn't an "alternative." It is a comprehensive examination, which many doctoral programs have. (Union does not.) That means it is still one dissertation (or "alternative") short, and certainly doesn't fit in with the cited statistic.

    NB: Ironically, Union is (or, perhaps was) just the place for someone like Neil Hayes. Hayes' final project was a very practical book (by all accounts) and has likely contributed significantly to his field. Too bad that (a) he didn't have any other legitimate degrees with which to gain admission to a real school and (b) decided to purchase his Ph.D.'s from two diploma mills.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2005
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Help me understand how he bought a degree even though he submitted a dissertation that "has likely contributed significantly to his field."

    Purchasing a degree usually means no or little work and not a major paper submission such as Neil's.

    I am only asking for my own edification. This is not intended to be a conflictual post.
  11. David Boyd

    David Boyd New Member

    DETC will not be approving its member schools to award PhD's in the near future.
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Active Member

    No, Jimmy, it's cool. It is Neil that raises passions on this, not others.

    The main problem is that the work was done outside the auspices and supervision of a doctoral program. Dissertations-before-the-fact are not acceptable for a variety of reasons.

    Another problem is that he shopped it to two schools of extremely dubious repute. If his work was so worthy, why not submit it to a recognized school? Because there isn't one on the planet who would have gone for that, no matter how fine the work was.

    A third is that Neil reported that Knightsbridge didn't have a faculty member qualified in his area. IIRC, they solved this by awarding Neil a degree in a different field.

    A fourth is this whole "Ph.D. by prior published work" brouhaha. Whle this option exists at a few, legitimate schools, it is severely limited (often to faculty members of that school). The degree is awarded not for some self-published book, but for scholarly work done over a period of time. Also, that scholarly work is normally threaded together with significant effort (new effort, BTW). Neil got a Ph.D. for a book and/or dissertation he wrote with no supervision.

    A fifth problem is with the two schools themselves. One is, by all accounts, a diploma mill. The second, Knightsbridge, acts like one, including its moves from country-to-country, its list of faculty than in many cases can't be found, its lack of degree-granting authority (other than self-granted), and its recent offer to sell an honorary Ph.D. for 10K Sterling. Not good.

    A sixth is the apparent fact that Neil has no other university degrees. I think this is true, and I've asked the question on this board. If so, wouldn't the award of a Ph.D. to such a person be extremely unusual, warranted in only the most extreme cases? What makes Neil such a case?

    I've got nothing against Neil, and even less against his work. But even his description of the processes at Trinity and Knightsbridge are an indictment against the legitimacy of his "degrees." The fact that both operations themselves are indefensible just adds to it.

    Does anyone really think a recognized university would have done all of this? If so, why didn't Neil just do that? He obviously craves acceptance of his degree. (Note the recent thread he started about some award he received.) And he would have avoided all the grief that comes with diploma mill credentials. If no legitimate school would do this--which I assert because of the, um, "unconventional" nature of the process and because Neil didn't go through a recognized school--doesn't that say something?

    Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, these schools can do whatever they want. Knightsbridge? The same, but for an entirely different reason: it's hard to catch a greased pig.
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you, Rich. I can see some of your points. I appreciate your understanding of the tone of my post.

  14. dlady

    dlady New Member

    This sounds definitive, is this on authority?

  15. David Boyd

    David Boyd New Member

    The DETC Commission has authorized a pilot program for professional doctorates.

    I don't have any details but this would likely include the DBA, EdD, and a couple others.

    Specific information should be available in a few weeks.

    My own personal belief is that the Commission would authorize a pilot program for PhD's only after the pilot program for professional doctorates is successfully completed.
  16. sshuang

    sshuang New Member

    Taft Offering DBA or EdD???

    So is Taft going to offer DBA or EdD soon?
  17. Detc with no troubles can evaluate and accredits institutions of higher education to offer EdD, or PhD. For the reason that at this moment, the Detc accredits universities that offer one of the more important degrees in the democratic US = Doctor of Jurisprudence.

    In addition, DETC accredits a university that offers a Doctor of Physical Therapy degree. (University of St. Augustine for Health Sciences)

    Consequently, accredits a university to offer PhD, DBA or EdD in history, education, business administration etc, is a piece of cake.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2005
  18. Kirkland

    Kirkland New Member

    Rich, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the fact you've been reading their catalogs and have been discussing this for some time. The State of California doesn't agree with you. And my doctoral committee didn't see it that way either. Maybe they'll change the program and do things differently, who knows.

    If anyone ever questions the validity of CCU degrees or their doctorates, there is always the appropriate section of the California Education Code or or

    On another note and philosophically:
    In business, once you get an accredited bachelors and sometimes a masters, the rest is continuing education. As an example... in my company, degrees just aren't discussed. It's a global technology corporation (one of the biggest) and we come from diverse backgrounds and all walks of life. Nobody walks around and asks what you did your dissertation on. That would be socially and professionally inept. They all know they're smart people and give each other mutual respect. They wouldn't be there if they weren't smart. We are expected to attain the highest professional certifications. These are the stock in trade and the most important credential. That is what establishes your credibility in your career field.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2005
  19. David Boyd

    David Boyd New Member

    Re: Taft Offering DBA or EdD???

    We are not sure at this time. After we analyze the requirements and the procedures, we’ll make a decision if we’ll apply for a pilot program. And if we apply, we would still need to be selected to participate.

    Look for DETC to move slowly and carefully as they take this next step.
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Active Member

    If you were a supremely qualified candidate and showed up at our company for a tryout (which we do with new people) holding a CCU doctorate, you would be shown unceremoniously to the door.

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